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Author Topic:   Peppered Moths and Natural Selection
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 151 of 350 (347625)
09-08-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Quetzal
09-08-2006 10:44 AM


Re: It's quite obvious...
Peppered moths, sigh, no, they don't show evolution.
Right, we know that. However, the observations DO quite clearly show how natural selection acting on variations in a population can change the frequency of alleles in that population.
i hate to be a pain, but that's the definition of "evolution."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 10:44 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 9:00 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 156 by Quetzal, posted 09-08-2006 10:07 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 152 of 350 (347630)
09-08-2006 8:56 PM


Challenge, who's up for it?
Ok, I came here to debate about evolution, and I'm not getting the experience I would like. I started about pepper moths, but the argument turns around to me and my words instead of evolution and it's fallacies. I would like to propose a challenge, for a one on one moderated debate (in the appropriate topic - the Great Debate) with anyone who would like, to show the proof that directly relates to evolution, macroevolution. Step right up to the plate. I want a real debate, where the debate will be directly about the evidence and what it shows in regards to evolution. Who's up for it? Razd, you seem to like attacking me in particular, maybe you would like to accept my challenge? Or maybe someone else? Come on now, let's agree so that we can ask for a debate topic to be opened up for us. Either accept the challenge, or deny it, but don't keep on debating about me and what I say, the topic is evolution vs. Creation, so let's do it how it's supposed to be done... I'm waiting...
By the way, I do not wish to reply to the attacks at me, if someone has something about evolution, evidence, pepper moths, natural selection, etc, then we may debate and discuss. But discussions about me, my words, what you think of them and what you think they are, etc, is not really on topic here. Remember, try to debate about the information and interpreting it, not the people.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 9:20 PM Someone who cares has not replied
 Message 155 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 9:28 PM Someone who cares has not replied
 Message 167 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 8:21 AM Someone who cares has not replied
 Message 168 by jerker77, posted 09-09-2006 5:57 PM Someone who cares has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 153 of 350 (347632)
09-08-2006 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by arachnophilia
09-08-2006 8:37 PM


Re: It's quite obvious...
... but that's the definition of "evolution."
(shh, you'll spoil the fun ...)
Seriously though, SWC had said it was "microevolution" not "macroevolution" so the better response would have been "no, they don't show macroevolution"
Nor do they demonstrate speciation, just changes in the frequencies of alleles below the speciation level (so far).

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... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2006 8:37 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by arachnophilia, posted 09-09-2006 1:04 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 154 of 350 (347638)
09-08-2006 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 8:56 PM


Re: Challenge, who's up for it?
First try A Critique of the "Evolution Essay" where Lithodid-Man issued you a challenge to defend your "essay" the last time you were here.
If you feel you are being ganged up on, then you can ask for it to be moved to the Great Debate.
But you should make some effort to answer the rebuttals that have been posted about your misrepresentations and repeated falsehoods eh?
abe: Just to be clear, what I am talking about is a demonstration of a willingness to debate in good faith, actually dealing with the issues raised, and answering them, rather than continued blind unsupported assertion after blind unsupported assertion -- it's the other half of the equation /abe
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : {abe}

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 8:56 PM Someone who cares has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 919 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 155 of 350 (347641)
09-08-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 8:56 PM


Re: Challenge, who's up for it?
Someone Who Cares writes:
But discussions about me, my words, what you think of them and what you think they are, etc, is not really on topic here.
If your words, what anyone may think of them, and what anyone may think they are, etc. are off-topic, how are we to divine what you really mean by your posts or your essay?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 8:56 PM Someone who cares has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5954 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 156 of 350 (347657)
09-08-2006 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by arachnophilia
09-08-2006 8:37 PM


Re: It's quite obvious...
However, my take on this particular case (as with the finches the Grants study, for instance), is that it represents a positive demonstration of one of the key mechanisms of evolution, not evolution writ large. Arguing the peppered moths or changes in beak size in Geospiza fortis on Genovese - especially since the allele frequency in both those cases reverted to something approaching the original distribution - shows only how natural selection operates over the short term. It provides one line of evidence for evolution, but in neither case does it show the other key elements of evolutionary theory (such as descent with modification, etc). Therefore, when a creationist claims the experiments with industrial melanism or variation in beak size due to environmental pressures don't show evolution (by which they either mean speciation or long-term evolutionary change and descent with modification = macroevolution), then they are making an extremely trivial observation. Hence my "Duh, no kidding" response.
My two cents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by arachnophilia, posted 09-08-2006 8:37 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 157 of 350 (347681)
09-08-2006 10:52 PM


ANYONE?
I see no one is brave enough to step up to my challenge so far... Just one brave soul to debate with me one on one...
And yes, it is very overwhelming, I feel I am one against a whole army, that's why I want to switch to a Great Debate with someone...
Come now, who shall defend their FAITH in evolution?
Like I said, I want an accept or deny reply, not more talk about me and my essay and my words to avoid the real matter...
I'm still waiting...
Now I feel like Goliath when he challenged Israel to send one man to fight him... Who's the David of these forums?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 10:57 PM Someone who cares has replied
 Message 166 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 8:08 AM Someone who cares has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 919 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 158 of 350 (347683)
09-08-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 10:52 PM


Re: ANYONE?
I volunteer. However, it may not go as quickly as you may like. I have a life independent of this forum.
ABE - It's your move.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 10:52 PM Someone who cares has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 11:15 PM anglagard has replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 159 of 350 (347700)
09-08-2006 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by anglagard
09-08-2006 10:57 PM


Re: ANYONE?
Great!
Yeah, me too, I have a life independent of forums as well, so... Oh, and when my classes start, I may not be able to get to this at all, so have that in mind...
First we must agree on a topic for the Great Debate, what shall it be? Proof for evolution? Validity of Evolution? My essay? Something else?

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 10:57 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 11:21 PM Someone who cares has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 919 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 160 of 350 (347708)
09-08-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 11:15 PM


Topic
I believe it should be your essay.
Edited by anglagard, : ABE - The reason being for me is it already provides a clear starting point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 11:15 PM Someone who cares has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 11:34 PM anglagard has not replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 161 of 350 (347715)
09-08-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by anglagard
09-08-2006 11:21 PM


Re: Topic
Ok then, I'll notify a mod or administrator that we want to have a Great Debate.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by anglagard, posted 09-08-2006 11:21 PM anglagard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by AdminJar, posted 09-08-2006 11:37 PM Someone who cares has replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 350 (347716)
09-08-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Someone who cares
09-08-2006 11:34 PM


Re: Topic
Already taken care of. The essay thread has been moved to Great Debates.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 11:34 PM Someone who cares has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Someone who cares, posted 09-08-2006 11:50 PM AdminJar has not replied

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 163 of 350 (347720)
09-08-2006 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by AdminJar
09-08-2006 11:37 PM


Re: Topic
Oh... I already sent an email to the Administrator... If it comes, just ignore it then.
Edited by Someone who cares, : No reason given.

"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown

This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 164 of 350 (347728)
09-09-2006 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by RAZD
09-08-2006 9:00 PM


Re: It's quite obvious...
Seriously though, SWC had said it was "microevolution" not "macroevolution" so the better response would have been "no, they don't show macroevolution"
oh, yes, i keep forgetting that creationists opperate under the assumption that 1+1≠2. sorry, my mistake.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by RAZD, posted 09-08-2006 9:00 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by RAZD, posted 09-09-2006 7:49 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 165 of 350 (347749)
09-09-2006 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by arachnophilia
09-09-2006 1:04 AM


math and creationist logic
... creationists opperate under the assumption that 1+1≠2. sorry, my mistake.
They also tend to think that there is a "creationist logic" that is different from "evolutionist logic" ...
S1wc writes:
Message 14
I have addressed many points in Evolution Logic about my essay ...
(color mine for emPHAsis, capitals in the original ... false btw, assertion.)
when what they are really up against is that their NON{logic}, such as using strawman arguments, arguments from incredulity and the like, ≠ {logic} -- whether actual logic is used on evolution, physics, chemistry, or day to day events, or whatever. Likewise logical fallacies are logical fallacies whether they are posted by creationists, evolutionists, tv ads, pollitical campaigns, etcetera.
There are no special creationist or evolutionist subfields -- the arguments are either logical or not, and you don't make something logical by calling it so.
Of course they also think that NOT{evolution} == {their creationism}, a basic logical fallacy of the first order.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by arachnophilia, posted 09-09-2006 1:04 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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