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Author
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Topic: HISTORY BUFFS, COME HELP ME WITH JESUS!
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contracycle
Inactive Member
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Message 16 of 54 (160945)
11-18-2004 8:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 15 by JasonChin
11-18-2004 6:40 AM
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quote:
your fear of Christianity having bastardized origins will subside.
Seeing as I am not a believer, and therefore have on emotional investment in it's truth, why the hell should I feel afraid?
quote:
And arguing that Christianity shares traits with other religions is hardly a compelling argument that it's a bastard religion.
Ripped of the resurrection, ripped off the virgin birth, ripped off the flood, and ripped of Moses in the basket. It's clearly a mishmash of local religions.
quote:
yet, it's the only argument that you've been able to make so far (and it was easily put down, I might add)
Actually, my argument was that the claims in the linked article - you know, the article - did not stand up on their own. If I wanted to attack christianity, I have plenty of other arguments. Want to step up to the plate and explain the butchery of the egyptian first born and the massacres of Sodom and Gomorrah?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 15 by JasonChin, posted 11-18-2004 6:40 AM | | JasonChin has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4875 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 17 of 54 (161061)
11-18-2004 12:12 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by JasonChin
11-18-2004 4:38 AM
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Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted, is, God with us." Isaiah vii, 14 We have no idea where the story of Noah came from. One idea is that it came from Babylon. COMPARISON OF BABYLONIAN AND NOAHIC FLOOD STORIES
Because two cultures share certain general themes doesn't mean one culture's religion was derived from the other. For instance, the Mongols and the Myans both worshipped the sun........and this, we know, was most likely pure coincidence. But I didn't say derived I said influenced and the religions were present in the same cities, same time. My statement was in the form of a rebuttal of a statement that Christianity wasn't influenced. I'm simply saying that I don't know with any certainty to what extent or what direction the influences went. You would need to read back over this thread,it's brief, to see that my point is not that Christianity was derived from mystery religons but that it can't be definitively claimed that Judaism and Christian developed without any influences even though both have strong exclusive tendencies. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by JasonChin, posted 11-18-2004 4:38 AM | | JasonChin has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.7
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Contrary to contracycles belief...
contracycle writes: Seeing as I am not a believer, and therefore have on emotional investment in it's truth, why the hell should I feel afraid? Because the belief which you cling to is the belief that humans are evolving into a unified family with a single minded purpose. While this is commendable among third world dreamers, the fact is that humanity is intrinsically imperfect and will always form oppressive actions against itself without having a God to surrender to. You are afraid that God is being used to manipulate and oppress. It is true that religion has been abused this way, but God is alive and personal. He loves you. You may not be afraid now, for you have no belief. You will get the opportunity to reject or accept Him officially...some day. contracycle writes: If I wanted to attack christianity, I have plenty of other arguments. And I respect your attack upon oppressive governments abuse of religion. You have no arguments against Christ, however, aside from your belief that He does not exist. I represent Him, right here and right now. Tell me what you dislike about the belief in Christ. Is He not a good belief? I am not talking Old Testament, here. Tell me what is wrong with the message of Jesus Christ.
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CK
Member (Idle past 4325 days) Posts: 3221 Joined: 07-04-2004
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Message 19 of 54 (161387)
11-19-2004 4:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-19-2004 3:31 AM
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Re: Contrary to contracycles belief...
quote:
Tell me what you dislike about the belief in Christ. Is He not a good belief?
As a belief, jesus seems fine, but for many of us we don't see the need for a skygod to come and save us. If that was the case I would go for the equally fictional superman.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 3:31 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Mammuthus
Member (Idle past 6673 days) Posts: 3085 From: Munich, Germany Joined: 08-09-2002
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Message 20 of 54 (161391)
11-19-2004 4:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-19-2004 3:31 AM
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Re: Contrary to contracycles belief...
quote:
Because the belief which you cling to is the belief that humans are evolving into a unified family with a single minded purpose.
I can't speak for contracycle but I doubt this is what he believes and it is certainly not what evolution and specifically human evolution proposes. Evolution is not unifying humans and has no single minded purpose. You have more kids than everyone else, your genes are passed on to the next generation at a higher frequency. If this keeps up, over time, your genes become highly represented in the population or even fixed in the population i.e. basically the only flavor of any gene is yours. Look up any literature on the Y chromosome and you will see how powerful this process can be i.e. very few males (relatively speaking) have contributed to the current gene pool. This is not the case for mitochondrial DNA (inherited maternally only). No purpose, no unifying. If anything, it would tend to separate us into different species if there was enough isolation among groups. You usually post very even handedly in heated debate threads. I would hate to see you develope a completely false impression of the science of evolution.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 3:31 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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contracycle
Inactive Member
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Message 21 of 54 (161393)
11-19-2004 4:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-19-2004 3:31 AM
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Re: Contrary to contracycles belief...
quote:
Because the belief which you cling to is the belief that humans are evolving into a unified family with a single minded purpose.
Now thats one hell of a leap. Where have I ever made any references toa single-minded purpose or family? Thats totally nuts.
quote:
While this is commendable among third world dreamers, the fact is that humanity is intrinsically imperfect and will always form oppressive actions against itself without having a God to surrender to.
The first part of your statement is true - I'm unclear why you think its controversial. But of course your logic falters in the second, as we presently in the midst of a war fought between religious fanatics in America and their opposites in the Middle East. Quite clearly religion does not restrain violence.
quote:
You are afraid that God is being used to manipulate and oppress. It is true that religion has been abused this way, but God is alive and personal. He loves you.
God is lie created mostly to justify murdering other people and taking their stuff.
quote:
I represent Him, right here and right now. Tell me what you dislike about the belief in Christ. Is He not a good belief?
No - christianity is a religion for slaves. It teaches obedience and submission; the inevitability of rule. You yourself argue that humans should "surrender" to god - which inevitably means, surrender to a few people who claim to speak on gods behalf. Christianity is a chain that holds humanity down, and we will all be better off the sooner it is eradicated like the dangerous disease it is.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 3:31 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3655 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 22 of 54 (161432)
11-19-2004 7:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-19-2004 3:31 AM
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The Message of Jesus or Christ?
quote:
Tell me what is wrong with the message of Jesus Christ.
The message that Jesus preached, "the Kingdom of God is at hand", is different than what Paul preached about "Jesus Christ" which dealt with the sacrifice for sin. The teachings of Jesus on repentance (turn away from doing wrong) and right behavior are good. These teachings are not unique to Christianity though. Paul preached that "Christ" died for our sins and that he was raised on the third day. What do you consider the message of Jesus Christ to be?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 3:31 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 9:15 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.7
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Re: The Message of Jesus or Christ?
purpledawn writes: The message that Jesus preached, "the Kingdom of God is at hand", is different than what Paul preached about "Jesus Christ" which dealt with the sacrifice for sin. The teachings of Jesus on repentance (turn away from doing wrong) and right behavior are good. These teachings are not unique to Christianity though. Paul preached that "Christ" died for our sins and that he was raised on the third day. What do you consider the message of Jesus Christ to be?
While Jesus was speaking to the Jewish people, showing them a Gospel of the kingdom and a hope for the Jewish nation, Paul was "ordained" by the Holy Spirit to speak to the Gentiles. The Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected. Jesus message is for everyone, of course, but in the context of His words, He was addressing His Jewish Disciples whereas Paul was addressing Gentile pagans.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 11-19-2004 7:31 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3655 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 24 of 54 (161472)
11-19-2004 11:09 AM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
11-19-2004 9:15 AM
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Re: The Message of Jesus or Christ?
quote:
The Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected.
Please explain the option you speak of, when was it presented to the Jews as a group (remember they are scattered) and when did the Jews as a group reject it. The Kingdom of God is at hand, meaning judgment day is here. Either you make the cut or you don't. Jesus said he came for the lost not the righteous, therefore he apparently considered the righteous ready for the coming judgment. Where did Jesus state to the Jews as a group that rejection of him or God stopped the Kingdom from coming?
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 9:15 AM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-20-2004 9:15 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Brad
Member (Idle past 4985 days) Posts: 143 From: Portland OR, USA Joined: 01-26-2004
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Message 25 of 54 (161572)
11-19-2004 5:57 PM
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Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
11-19-2004 9:15 AM
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Re: The Message of Jesus or Christ?
Heh, the message of Christ was rejected by the Hebrew Jews because they understood the prophecy, that's why Paul had much better luck later in his life converting the Greek jews, they could only read the mis-translated Greek texts. If you don't believe my, look up WHY the jews reject Christ.
-Brad
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 9:15 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.7
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Re: The Message of Jesus or Christ?
To begin with, my explanations are based on Biblical interpretation. For those who consider the Bible as a valid source to explain itself, my explanations will make sense. For those, however, who want to consult some "other" type of source, any popular explanation within the current crop of scholars and pseudo-scholars of the day will suffice. My theology is based on progressive Dispensationalism.
Dispensationalism - A system of theology that sees God working with man in different ways during different ages. While 'Dispensations' are not ages, but stewardships, or administrations, we tend to see them now as ages since we look back on specific time periods when they were in practice. Dispensationalism is distinguished by three key principles.
1 - A clear distinction between God's program for Israel and God's program for the Church.
2 - A consistent and regular use of a literal principle of interpretation
3 - The understanding of the purpose of God as His own glory rather than the salvation of mankind.
Almost all theologians will recognize that God worked differently through the Law than He did through Grace. That is not to say that salvation was attained in a different manner, but that the responsibilities given to man by God were different during the period of the giving of the Law up to the cross, just as they were different for Adam and Eve. The Jews were to show their true faith by doing what God had commanded, even though they couldn't keep the moral Law. That's what the sacrifices were for. When the apostle Paul said that as to the Law he was blameless, he didn't mean that he never sinned, but that he obeyed God by following the guidelines of the Law when he did sin, and animal sacrifices were offered for his sin. Salvation came not by keeping the law, but by seeing it's true purpose in exposing sin, and turning to God for salvation. The Jews weren't saved based on how well they kept the law, as that would be salvation by works.
More of the basics behind this theology can be found at: http://www.dispensationalism.com/The specific scriptures that explain how Israel as a group rejected their purpose and as a consequence allowed a new Dispensation aimed at the Gentiles are as follows: Comparison & Contrast Between Israel and the Church This page explains in concise detail the difference between Israel and the Church and of how the church has failed to fullfill its collective destiny starting with Constantine. C.I. Scofield - The Church's Greatest Failure This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-20-2004 09:19 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by purpledawn, posted 11-19-2004 11:09 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3655 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 27 of 54 (161951)
11-20-2004 8:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
11-20-2004 9:15 AM
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Scary
Very scary! Since this is the Faith and Belief forum, I doubt if I will get a more specific statement of the offer given to the Jews and where it is written and when it was rejected. No one else has been able to give me that answer either. When I read theology pages expounding on the great and glorious plan etc., all I can think of is the shepherd out in the field with his flock or the farmer in his field. Their primary concern was feeding their families and keeping them safe. They came into Jerusalem to have their Passover lamb slaughtered and then went home for the feast. When were they told that the Jews as a whole rejected an offer from God? Are you saying when they went to Jerusalem for Passover the next year, everything was changed? This reminds me of political polls, where they say that n% of Americans approve or disapprove of the President etc. Oddly enough since I have been old enough to vote no one has ever asked me what I thought about any president for a political poll. Show me that God didn't disenfranchise a large portion of his people.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 26 by Phat, posted 11-20-2004 9:15 AM | | Phat has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18549 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 2.7
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Re: Scary Mary, Larry, and Very...
purpledawn writes: When were they told that the Jews as a whole rejected an offer from God? Its like if America cut off diplomatic relations with France. Any individual american could still tour France. Any individual Jew could still accept their Messiah, but Israel as a nation was not ready to step into the leadership role as head of all nations since they rejected their Messiah.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 27 by purpledawn, posted 11-20-2004 8:13 PM | | purpledawn has replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3655 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 29 of 54 (162011)
11-21-2004 8:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
11-20-2004 11:55 PM
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Avoidance
I don't have to change my belief system or way of life to tour France. You're avoiding my question. Stick with the ancient farmer theme. The year after the death of Jesus, a Jewish farmer (me  ) travels into Jerusalem for the Passover. You and I are in the market place chit chatting and I tell you about the perfect lamb I raised for the Passover. What are you going to tell me about Jesus? Explain to me why the sacrifices etc. are not needed anymore even though I see that they are still taking place in Jerusalem. Explain to me why I no longer fall under the Jewish legal system. Explain to me why you think the covenant with God is over and a new one exists. Explain to me the offer that was supposedly made to our people and what appointed group rejected it. How will you prove these assertions to me, a simple Jewish farmer?  Remember this is only one year after the death of Jesus. You would be Jewish and not one of the disciples of course. No Paul yet either.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 28 by Phat, posted 11-20-2004 11:55 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 31 by Phat, posted 11-21-2004 11:44 AM | | purpledawn has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 30 of 54 (162023)
11-21-2004 10:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
11-19-2004 3:31 AM
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Topic lost.
I am not talking Old Testament, here. Tell me what is wrong with the message of Jesus Christ. PB, I was reading the interesting topic debate and though not participating, learning some things. It appears your question here would be ok for another thread, but it has led this discussion off topic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 18 by Phat, posted 11-19-2004 3:31 AM | | Phat has not replied |
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