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Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 256 (459572)
03-08-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Chiroptera
03-04-2008 12:56 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Chiroptera writes:

Buzsaw writes:

The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.

Hmm. Actually, I've always felt that the Industrial Revolution was the result of the depravity of humankind.

Off-topic, I know; this is just a short note making explicit the problems of stating your idiosyncratic visions of history as if they were undisputed fact.

1. Name one nation or culture having no knowledge of Biblibal scriptural text which contributed to the Industrial Revolution.

2. The technology of the Industrial Revolution has blessed the cultures of humanity who follow the principles of the NT textual scriptures. The US of A exemplifies the freedom, prosperity and lifestyle enjoyed by the more fundamentalist NT textual cultures which enjoy the blessings of those textual principles.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2008 12:56 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 20506
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 227 of 256 (459582)
03-08-2008 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Buzsaw
03-08-2008 4:43 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
If I'm reading Chiroptera correctly, I think you may be missing the point. You think he's equating depravity to Christianity, while what Chiroptera is actually saying is that the Industrial Revolution was driven by motives normally deprecated by Christianity, such as greed and avarice, and that these were the driving forces behind the Industrial Revolution, not God and Bible.

Chiroptera is also right to note that this is off-topic, unless the Industrial Revolution is how we know there's a God.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 256 (459586)
03-08-2008 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by Percy
03-08-2008 5:11 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Chiroptera is also right to note that this is off-topic....

Oops. I almost responded to that post.

Percy has interpreted my post correctly.

But I will also repeat my point: not only are Buz's comments in the original post to which I responded controversial, but they aren't even on topic.

To be on topic, it would be insufficient for Buz to explain the Industrial Revolution in terms of people's belief in God or Christianity; he would have to explain how the Industrial Revolution would not have occurred if there were no god.


...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 256 (459631)
03-08-2008 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chiroptera
03-08-2008 6:09 PM


Re: How About This?
My apologies for going off topic. I'll leave off on that but how about this?

If there were no texts and a god did exist like Jehovah it is likely it would be to his best interest to reveal himself in more personal and direct ways to the early intelligent humans which he created. I cannot conceive of a supreme god which would bother to create beings with intelligence being formed in his image without revealing himself to the creatures.

This in fact, was the case with Adam and Eve. There was likely no textual scriptures but a manifestation of God was revealed to them in the garden. Likely there existed no textual scriptures for a lengthy period of time.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chiroptera, posted 03-08-2008 6:09 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 12:11 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 230 of 256 (459671)
03-09-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by Buzsaw
03-08-2008 11:10 PM


Re: How About This?
There must have been an extended period where no religious texts existed but humans did.

Take however long ago it is you think humans first appeared and subtract the time that it is approximated that the first religious texts appeared and we should have some indication of how long humans existed without the presence of any religious texts at all.

This in fact, was the case with Adam and Eve. There was likely no textual scriptures but a manifestation of God was revealed to them in the garden. Likely there existed no textual scriptures for a lengthy period of time.

Why not supply a ready made "word of God" text from the beginning?
This would be a lot simpler and a lot more consistent with the teachings of Christianity (belssed are those who..... etc. etc.)

If there were no texts and a god did exist like Jehovah it is likely it would be to his best interest to reveal himself in more personal and direct ways to the early intelligent humans which he created.

If in this absence of texts God felt the need to demonstrate his existence more "directly" why now, with multiple conflicting and erroneaous texts in existence and more poeple than ever before concluding that without "direct" evidence there can be no God, does he not feel the need for "directness"?

1)The inexplicable lack of an initial, original and definitive text
2)The initial need for "directness" in human affairs by God due to the lack of aforementioned definitive text
3)The current existence of multiple fallible human written conflicting texts each with their own followers
4)The "Blessed are those who believe but but do not see" proclamation of Christianity

Are all these not very contradictory?

Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Buzsaw, posted 03-08-2008 11:10 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 256 (459739)
03-09-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Straggler
03-09-2008 12:11 PM


Re: How About This?
Straggler, you're leading off topic and I'm not going there again. The OP question is about how knowledge of God would be known without written text. I've shown that humans have known by revelation according to the Biblical record.

Obviously the knowledge was either not passed down or not received by descendents of those to whom revelation was given.

To go into why written text was not initially established is another topic as well as your points pertaining to textual problems.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 12:11 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 6:11 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 232 of 256 (459750)
03-09-2008 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Buzsaw
03-09-2008 5:04 PM


God Against ID - ???
The OP question is about how knowledge of God would be known without written text.

Indeed it is.

To which your only direct answer so far has been to suggest that in the absence of texts it would be necessary for God to -

reveal himself in more personal and direct ways

It seems that in the absence of religious texts even God considers there to be insufficient evidence for his own existence available to us without direct personal revelation.

So much for the apparent design in nature = evidence for design argument. God himself is against you on that one.

Who would have thought it? God is anti IDist!!!!!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Buzsaw, posted 03-09-2008 5:04 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Buzsaw, posted 03-09-2008 10:19 PM Straggler has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 256 (459802)
03-09-2008 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Straggler
03-09-2008 6:11 PM


Re: God Against ID - ???
So what's wrong with personal revelation? We'd all be awed at that wouldn't we?

As for written text, we have it now chock full of fulfilled or fulfilling prophecy and nobody here seems to care. Besides, who of you people believe the record we have? Why do you think a written text which would likely read as it is given in the beginning would make a difference?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 6:11 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 03-10-2008 5:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 234 of 256 (459833)
03-10-2008 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Buzsaw
03-09-2008 10:19 PM


Re: God Against ID - ???
So what's wrong with personal revelation? We'd all be awed at that wouldn't we?

Indeed we would.

The point is that by your own reasoning God considered personal revelation necessary because in the absence of texts there was insufficient other evidence by which to conclude his existence.

The OP question is about how knowledge of God would be known without written text

It seems that your answer (and God’s) is that it is not possible from the natural world alone.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Buzsaw, posted 03-14-2008 9:58 PM Straggler has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 256 (460418)
03-14-2008 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Straggler
03-10-2008 5:13 AM


Re: God Against ID - ???
Straggler writes:

It seems that your answer (and God’s) is that it is not possible from the natural world alone.

Imo, the more we learn about the natural world relative to complexity, the more we should look beyond NS and RM for the answers and the less excuse we should have for not accepting ID creationism. Of course I know that most here do not agree with that.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 03-10-2008 5:13 AM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2008 7:43 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 236 of 256 (460452)
03-15-2008 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Buzsaw
03-14-2008 9:58 PM


Re: God Against ID - ???
Imo, the more we learn about the natural world relative to complexity, the more we should look beyond NS and RM for the answers and the less excuse we should have for not accepting ID creationism. Of course I know that most here do not agree with that.

So, to get back to the OP, how do you propose that this be done without the aid of any religious texts?

Direct revelation alone seems to be the only answer according to you . Thus those who wrote the bible must have either had direct interraction with God or else made large parts of it up.

I know which of the options I think more likely.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 256 (460477)
03-15-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Straggler
03-15-2008 7:43 AM


Re: God Against ID - ???
Straggler writes:

So, to get back to the OP, how do you propose that this be done without the aid of any religious texts?

Direct revelation alone seems to be the only answer according to you . Thus those who wrote the bible must have either had direct interraction with God or else made large parts of it up.

Imo the OP proposition is a highly unlikely one. I cannot conceive of a supreme deity who would expend creative effort in intelligent beings created after his own likeness without revelation to these creatures about himself and a code of conduct for them.

As to the credibility of those who wrote the Bible, that lies in verification of it's record after all is said and done. I repeat, after all is said and done.

In the mean time, for those who have no text due to the carelessness of forebears who failed to pass it down, the only thing they have for thinking about how things came to be is observation of complex things, both organic an inorganic. The tendency, according to human history appears to be to look to the supernatural.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2008 7:43 AM Straggler has not yet responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4964 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 238 of 256 (460564)
03-16-2008 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Straggler
03-06-2008 7:09 PM


Re: The OP was and is refuted
Straggler:
You still have not supplied any reasoned response as to why any design* in nature is the work of an "invisible" designer in the form of a god rather than any other possible form of designer such as an advanced alien civilisation.

That's right. We're not trying to do that (well... I AM!). One step at a time.

Orgel and Crick have put forward the notion of other alien life because of the same evidence long ago...

quote:
Crick was not content to sit back on his laurels after winning one of the top prizes in science, however. He continued to study the mysteries of life, such as the nature of consciousness, or the possibility that RNA preceded the development of DNA.

In 1973, he and the chemist Leslie Orgel published a paper in the journal Icarus suggesting that life may have arrived on Earth through a process called 'Directed Panspermia.'

The Panspermia hypothesis suggests that the seeds of life are common in the universe and can be spread between worlds. This idea originated with the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras, and was later promoted by the Swedish physicist Svante Arrhenius and the British astronomer Fred Hoyle.

Versions of this hypothesis have survived to the present day, with the discovery of proposed 'fossil structures' in the martian meteorite ALH84001.


( http://www.spacedaily.com/news/life-04zzz.html )

What does that tell you?

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 84 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 239 of 256 (460581)
03-16-2008 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Rob
03-16-2008 4:41 PM


Re: The OP was and is refuted
An interesting if mildly bonkers hypothesis that is, in principle at least, verifiable by material conventional scientific methodologies.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Rob, posted 03-16-2008 4:41 PM Rob has not yet responded

  
Agobot
Member (Idle past 4646 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 240 of 256 (460584)
03-16-2008 8:08 PM


ICANT said:
quote:
Say there were no Bible, no Qur'an, no Bhagavad Gita, no religious texts of any sort. How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?

There is a God? Really? What do you mean by God? By examining the world around me I have found no trace of God, only a multitude of traces of:

1. Biological evolution
2. Earth history that spawns nearly 5 billion years
3. evidence that Earth is not the centre of the Universe
4. etc


  
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