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Author | Topic: The Gospel, Christians and Acts | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
A lot of energy is spent by Christians trying to tell one another what a real christian is. Chances are, this is not a new phenomenon - lol. However, it is eerily similar to political mouthpieces trying to say who really represents the beliefs of one party or another.
Were you to ask people 'What does it mean to be a christian?' or 'What are the minimal requirements for someone to qualify as a christian?', you could get any number of responses. Some common essential properties of being a Christian you might hear are ... A. Believes the Bible (Or some variation on in what way someone 'Believes the Bible.')B. Goes to Church (For Catholics, we could enlarge this to include certain practices like eating fish on Fridays, etc.) C. Believes "Jesus died for my sins." D. Believes Jesus was/is God E. Believes only Christians go to Heaven F. Believes "You cannot make it to Heaven on your own." G. Believes in the Resurrection H. Is a member of my denomination I. Believes God created the world in 6 days What answer would people you know give ? It seems to us that most, if not all, the above have serious problems. For example, "E is self-referential ... saying a christian is someone who believes only Christians go to Heaven does nothing to define who a christian is. If we believed we were Christians and believed we were the only ones going to Heaven, then "E" would apply to us ... yet, by that belief, we have done nothing to explain what it means to be a christian. lol - many of the above make no sense historically. We have to assume that the early apostles and their churches should count as 'christians', yet they did not have 'The Bible' (indeed, the Church disagreed among itself for centuries as to which books belonged in the bible and which did not), so one could hardly say that a requirement for christianity is that you believe 'The Bible'. Jesus tells us the old testament is most useful if we are willing to acknowledge it is incomplete in nature. Additionally, without the balance infused by the 'enemies' of the israelites, the Words of the prophets, it may become difficult to establish what the Father is doing, and what the children are doing under His disguise. Similarly, the doctrine of atonement in its current state didn't even exist until the 11th century, and early believers did not have the trinitarian formulas the modern church holds so dear. Indeed, Origen, the most important christian theologian of the 2nd century, would not even be allowed in the church today by that standard. In addition to historical problems, significant biblical problems stand out from the above list as well. Where do we see early evangelists stressing to non-believers any of these things? If you want to see what makes a Christian a christian, we think you should look at what the early apostles preached to non-christians in an effort to have them join the Faith. A study of Acts can be rather revealing here. The following chart has been assembled to illustrate what teachings you find in Acts regarding christianity. The book of Acts was chosen because that is the only book where the focus is on 'evangelism' to non-believers and new believers.
Note here that "Jesus is Lord" refers to His being Universally elevated to head o' household status (over Heaven and Earth). Based on the above, the present opinion says that other than emphasizing the Resurrection, the church has rather struck out when it comes to defining who or what a christian is. It seems, at least if Paul, James, Peter, and Stephen are good sources, that a christian is someone who has chosen to follow Jesus the Christs' practices, repenting of unloving acts that destroy relationships, and believes Jesus is the Christ (as shown by his Resurrection) who has been given power over Heaven and Earth, including the office of a lovingkindness Judge. While none of the above are things that most Christians may disagree with, they are also unlikely to be the first thing out of their mouths when asked 'What does it mean to be a christian?' It seems to the present opinion, Christians in general do not like the idea that repentance is an absolute requirement as opposed to a goal. We would further say that merely believing Jesus is the Christ who sits in power over Heaven and Earth would strike many as "too easy," allowing too many fringe groups in. And in particular, the idea that "Christians, and only Christians, go to Heaven" is such a basic tenet to many that seeing it as not a required one just seems odd. The truth is that the word for Hell does not even show up in all of Acts. One wonders what that says about modern day evangelists and missionaries who start off their message with "Do you know where you are going when you die?" Deep breaths ... But what do you think? What does it mean to be a christian? Are there any passages you believe suggest there is some aspect fundamental to being a christian that is missing from the message given by the apostles in Acts? One Love Faith and Belief or bible Study please (& thank you)This thread examines christians and bibles - lol Edited by Bailey, : spelling Edited by Bailey, : title edit I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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Admin Director Posts: 13107 From: EvC Forum Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4444 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
What answer would people you know give ? All of them depending on who I was asking. I know Fundimentalists, Reformists, liberal Christians all who would answer some or all of the questions as yes. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3250 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
If Christians would spend more time being a Christian instead of defining to other Christians what a Christian is, we would have less arguments such as this one. My simple answer is given by Peter in Acts 2:
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." But this is just the "beginning" for the Christian. We have the rest of our eternal lives to grow in the grace, knowledge and love of the ONE who has saved us, redeemed us, and called us to Himself. Blessings Edited by John 10:10, : added "knowledge"
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Brian Member (Idle past 5214 days) Posts: 4659 From: Scotland Joined: |
In my life I think I have met less than a handful of people that I would consider to be Christian.
Very few people that I have met come anywhere near the example that Jesus promotes in the NT, and I tutored many trainee Church of Scotland ministers for 3 years at the university of Glasgow. In my opinion, there are many more athiests who act more Christlike than those who profess to being a Christian. Most of the 'Christians' I have met here at EvC are too filled with hate to be considered Christian. Buz, Iano, Jaywill, Ray, and others simply are not Christians, they have no compassion at all for anyone and are more into gimmicks than Jesus' teachings. I still attend church services quite a lot and, because of my job and research interests, I come in to contact with many Christians and within minutes of speaking to almost all of them it is easy to realise that they really are not Christian at all. It is pretty well-know that stats say there are around 2 billion Christians in the world today. I would say that this figure is nowhere near the true amount. We are told in Leviticus 19:18 that:
[i] Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Then Jesus reinforces this in the NT in Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. If everyone, not only Christians, followed this teaching then life would be much easier for everyone. Of course this teaching is not unique to Christianity, and other much older faiths promote this too. But how many religious people actually follow this teaching when we see so much bickering within faiths and so much hatred between faiths? Thank God I'm an atheist.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4444 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
Of course this teaching is not unique to Christianity, and other much older faiths promote this too. But how many religious people actually follow this teaching when we see so much bickering within faiths and so much hatred between faiths? The Liberal Christians that I mentioned in message 3 of this topic would fit into your If everyone, not only Christians, followed this teaching then life would be much easier for everyone. . They display tolerance and non-violence. There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange.
If Christians would spend more time being a Christian instead of defining to other Christians what a Christian is, we would have less arguments such as this one. It appears many people have not been honest about Jesus; we read that He died so that ALL may have Life, and an awesome one that is everliving. We agree that if those before us would have displayed more Love and honesty concerning the Faith and the Good News, there would likely be less need to currently divide the truth from Lies. If people who claimed the title 'Christian' acted more like jesus, we would likely have less discussions of this nature. Be thankful in all things good friend.
My simple answer is given by Peter in Acts 2: Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself." Great passage John. By 'simple', should we suggest it includes succinct and complete directions to join the Son @ the Father's mansion? One Love Edited by Bailey, : grammar
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ICANT Member (Idle past 282 days) Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: |
Hi Bailey,
Bailey writes: But what do you think? What does it mean to be a christian? Are there any passages you believe suggest there is some aspect fundamental to being a christian that is missing from the message given by the apostles in Acts? Brian gave the definition of a Christian when he said:
Brian writes: In my opinion, there are many more athiests who act more Christlike than those who profess to being a Christian. To be a Christian one must be Christ like. The word Christian appears in the Bible 2 times, Christians appears 1 time. The first time was in:
Acts 26:28 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian. It seems this King thought a Christian was special. The second time is in:
I Peter 4:16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. Peter thought they were special. The most important entry is:
Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. The disciples which are followers of Christ was called Christians, followrs of Christ in Antioch. ‘ transliteration Christianos translated Christians, is from the root word ‘ transliteration Christos translated Christ. So they were not self proclaimed Christians. They were called Christians by the people of Antioch because they were living a life like Christ. So if your friends and neighbors can't see Christ in your life you ain't a Christian. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thank you for the exchange.
Bri writes: In my life I think I have met less than a handful of people that I would consider to be Christian. Very few people that I have met come anywhere near the example that Jesus promotes in the NT, and I tutored many trainee Church of Scotland ministers for 3 years at the university of Glasgow. In my opinion, there are many more athiests who act more Christlike than those who profess to being a Christian. Further evidence that such occurence is not an isolated incidence; this may be an epidemic of global proportions - lol
Most of the 'Christians' I have met here at EvC are too filled with hate to be considered Christian. Buz, Iano, Jaywill, Ray, and others simply are not Christians, they have no compassion at all for anyone and are more into gimmicks than Jesus' teachings. This sounds similiar to Moses, in Numbers, when the Father requests of him to speak to The Rock, so as to bring forth streams of Living Water for the Father's thirsty children. Instead of following the True and Easy Way, the Helper invents his own way; he decides to strike The Rock (twice) and speak to the thirsty children - lol !? Thankfully, The Rock suffered the man's wrath; we suppose letting The Rock absorb the abuse would be better than the man speaking to it and hitting the children gathered. The Helper says basically, You rebels, blah, blah, blah ..., but the ones the Father Loves are not further wounded by him. We imagined him hitting it once, and wondering wtf water did not come out - lol. Like a caveman, he hits it again; a True reflection of the saddest black art, Religion (doing things ones own way). We are told the Father is faithful to the children, regardless of the man's incompetence, and Water does come forth from The Rock to quench the thirst of those gathered. Thankfully, Moses is unable to deliver the community into the Promised Land and the priviledge is reserved for a more sincere Helper. Metaphorically, it may be some of us bring forth Water out of The Rock, but like the Chosen Helper Moses, we are unable to deliver those who are gathered unto the Father's mansion; at least 'til the Volunteer Helpers stop hittin' everything and decide to perform as the Father and Son have requested - lol
I still attend church services quite a lot and, because of my job and research interests, I come in to contact with many Christians and within minutes of speaking to almost all of them it is easy to realise that they really are not Christian at all. Sounds like you gotta lil' bit o' the Holy ghost in ya - lol. As far as wolves in sheeps clothing; same deal on this end, though the behavior appears to be in no way restricted to 'christian' fluffers. We do not shew them away, so they get the crumbs ...
It is pretty well-know that stats say there are around 2 billion Christians in the world today. I would say that this figure is nowhere near the true amount. You may be correct, but when surmising an estimate, it may be wise to also set aside an allowance for those who are disciples of Jesus and do not flaunt His jewels. That portion may be a larger than Christians expect - lol
We are told in Leviticus 19:18 that: Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. Then Jesus reinforces this in the NT in Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Alright we believe you, we believe you - lol. You have provided very clear precepts to overcoming religious captivity, imho.
If everyone, not only Christians, followed this teaching then life would be much easier for everyone. Of course this teaching is not unique to Christianity, and other much older faiths promote this too. It appears to be the revelation of reality. Most through history can evidence the rational behind such ideologies; seems Some have Faith they said 'it' first, while Others have Faith 'it' was never said. Perhaps 'it' Never was said and 'it' has simply Always been - lol.
But how many religious people actually follow this teaching when we see so much bickering within faiths and so much hatred between faiths? 14 ?
Thank God I'm an atheist. lol - that remains to be seen you sicko If one cannot trust a 'christian' is what they claim, how can we trust the authenticity of a true 'atheist'? One Love Edited by Bailey, : grammar I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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iano Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Bailey writes: The book of Acts was chosen because that is the only book where the focus is on 'evangelism' to non-believers and new believers. The focus of the book of Acts is more history than it is doctrine. As your table adequately indicates, apart from "Jesus as Messiah" (addressed to the early chapters Jewish audience) and "Jesus saves you from your sin" (addressed to the later chapters Gentile audience) the book of Acts is doctrine-lite. One only has to skip to the next (doctrinally heavy) book (of Romans) to see what a central protagonist of the book of Acts has to say about mans position before God. He starts out reporting the bad news; that mankind, in toto, is under the wrath of God - which is what makes the good news so eternally good. It is stretching credibility to suppose that a doctrinally more detailed account of Pauls historical journeys in Acts wouldn't include him stressing this very same point to his audience. A case of absence of evidence not at all indicating evidence of absence? - What would you make of this btw (in passing)
quote: ________________
But what do you think? What does it mean to be a christian? Are there any passages you believe suggest there is some aspect fundamental to being a christian that is missing from the message given by the apostles in Acts? I haven't actually trawled through Acts on this count to be honest but when it comes to what constitutes a Christian I'd have to turn to the book of Romans - which would be a far better place to go than Acts - if gospel mechanics is your interest. To Romans 4:1-3 to be specific:
quote: What seems clear enough to me scripturally (and common sensically) is that there is no (absolute) need to reference Christ when it comes to what a person believes w.r.t their salvation. Like, Christ wasn't even born when Abram believed and was justified (Pauls model of salvation criterion fulfilled) If a person "believes God" then they are a Christian. Or (as Paul would say) they are "in Christ". This, whether a confessing atheist, a confessing muslim, a confessing goat-herder up the side of a mountain in Tibet who never heard of God or Christ. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Thanks for the exchange blues.
Blues writes:
We are not alone there, though we probably should be.
Bailey writes:
All of them depending on who I was asking. What answer would people you know give ? I know Fundimentalists, Reformists, liberal Christians all who would answer some or all of the questions as yes. It is a facinating trend, inventing new ways to labor for Jesus, though it does not seem as effective as the one Way used early on in history. Telling the Truth. One Love I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3250 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
In my life I think I have met less than a handful of people that I would consider to be Christian....... Thank God I'm an atheist. Considering where you live, it's no wonder you've not met many true Christians. England, Scotland, and Europe have fallen into nominal Christianity that maintains Christianity more in name than in heart. You are in the wrong forum if you expect to meet lots of Christians who are moved by the Lord's compassion. If you are ever in the Nashville area, I'll take you some churches and Christians where the love of the Lord truly shines. Blessings
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3250 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Great passage John. By 'simple', should we suggest it includes succinct and complete directions to join the Son @ the Father's mansion? Yep! But you asked "What does it mean to be a Christian?" "Joining the Son @ the Father's mansion" and living the Christian life thereafter as we ought to live are two different things. Christians are judged by their fruits. To be a true Christian one has to have the right roots. Blessings
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dwise1 Member Posts: 6077 Joined: Member Rating: 7.2 |
I think that the "Oh, they're not true Christians!" line is meant far more for non-Christian consumption and for political purposes.
We've seen it used repeated in creation/evolution discussions where the creationist will counter an opponent's pointing out that other Christians believe differently with "yes of course they would, but that's because they're not true Christians!" It's just the old "not a true Scotsman" argument used to discount evidence that contradicts their claim -- classic formulation: "No Scotsman would put sugar on his oatmeal." "Well, Angus over there puts sugar on his oatmeal and he's a Scotsman." "But obviously he's not a true Scotsman!". Thus to support their narrow interpretations, those creationists need to also narrow the definition of "Christian" to include only those adhering to their own beliefs, thus artificially defining other Christians out of existence. We'll also see it when different sects are competing with each other, wherein one sect will smear the other as not being "true Christians." Of course, certain sects will teach that other sects are in error and why, especially within sects that consider themselves to be the "One True Faith". That makes some sense, though very few outsiders will witness that. Nor should most members witness it, since most sects' teachings are affirmative (consisting of their particular interpretations and misinterpretations of specially-selected biblical passages and other theological meanderings), instead of being totally negative by simply being a listing of what other sects have gotten "wrong". You know, like creationism (as in the false theology of "creation science") consists of absolutely no positive evidence nor claims, but rather solely of negative claims of "science has it wrong" -- all of which are lies and deceptions. Quite a difference in approach taken by a class of sects and the false theology that they have spawned and actively support. Edited by dwise1, : No reason given. {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy. ("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984) Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world. (from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML) Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.(Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles) Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32) It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.Robert Colbert on NPR
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4625 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
Hi ICANT.
Thanks for the exchange. ICANT writes: Weary writes:
Brian gave the definition of a Christian when he said:
But what do you think? What does it mean to be a christian? Are there any passages you believe suggest there is some aspect fundamental to being a christian that is missing from the message given by the apostles in Acts? Brian writes: In my opinion, there are many more athiests who act more Christlike than those who profess to being a Christian. To be a Christian one must be Christ like. We agree with you guys. This is why we wonder if the place 'hell', that some have great faith in, would gladly welcome unrecognizable 'christians', if also denominations of all other faiths; belief and disbelief alike.
The word Christian appears in the Bible 2 times, Christians appears 1 time. The first time ... It seems this King thought a Christian was special. The second time ... Peter thought they were special. Sweet nuggets of Truth; nice snag you ol' dog - lol
The most important entry is the disciples which are followers of Christ was called Christians, followrs of Christ in Antioch. We think you are onto something here.
So they were not self proclaimed Christians. They were called Christians by the people of Antioch because they were living a life like Christ. Yes, you are onto the Truth. It stands to reason that it is better to be called a christian by someone else, than to place the crown upon your own head. Is this why Jesus said to them, Who do you say I Am? We can imagine as many churches folded, and manipulated the seekers, in the early days as will in the latter ones. Yet, the trees that do not produce fruit are simply cut down and thrown into the fire. So, the earliest christians did not title themselves, or their founded church, with such a sacred name as Jesus the Christ's as most, if not all, modern churches and disciples do. This 'right of passage' appears to be determined by the people within the town, and their perception of the disciples, and their fruit. Like you say, when they recognized Jesus reflection within the disciples, they called a spade a spade. The spade did not name itself and begin digging - lol
So if your friends and neighbors can't see Christ in your life you ain't a Christian. Interwebz neighbors and friends count too, right? One Love Edited by Bailey, : grammar Edited by Bailey, : spelling I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, I'm just a fool playing with ideas. My only intention is to tickle your thinker. Trust nothing I say. Learn for yourself. Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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