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Author Topic:   Spirits and other incorporial things
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 189 (162047)
11-21-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Hangdawg13
11-21-2004 12:35 PM


Yes, I know, but I'm talking about 3 people standing in a room hearing a voice coming from nowhere and then watching the furniture in that room re-arrange itself.

Were you there? When they told you the story, did you get their three stories separately, or did they all three tell you at once?

Look, if I want to see evidence of, say, natural selection, I can (and have) perform the experiments myself. But whenever I go to see ghosts, nothing happens. I'd be a bit more inclined to accept the "supernatural", or at the very least, a bit less likely to dismiss the reports out of hand, if supernatural experiences were something anyone could have whenever they wanted, in the way that scientific experiences are.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-21-2004 12:35 PM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2816 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 77 of 189 (162051)
11-21-2004 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Thugpreacha
11-21-2004 3:40 AM


General Semantic rephrasing
I distinctly heard voices come out of someone that were unexplainable.

I think it more accurate if you held "that have thus far been unexplained" or "as of this writing I've found no explanation".

Unexplainable seems to presume they can't be explained.

You want something difficult to explain? Try qualia, and that is our everday basic common experiences, but why are the firing of nerves experienced as for example "red", or "wet" or "sour" etc.

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-21-2004 3:40 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 12:48 AM lfen has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 78 of 189 (162106)
11-21-2004 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by lfen
11-21-2004 12:45 PM


Telepathy
quote:
I don't know about these apparent actions at a distance but I'm not yet prepared to believe in telepathy either though I've had some hard to explain experiences myself in this area. I don't think of these as supernatural though more like unexplained intuition at a distance.

I would have said that "unexplained intuition at a distance" would quite catagorically be classified as supernatural, at least by my definition of the term.

This discussion seems to be progreeing realy well. No name calling or unecessary labeling and both sides admitting, to some degree, to seeing the other's point of view. This is a welcome change from some ot the other threads I have followed.

I just want to clarify a few points that Have cropped up since I was here last.

First, I am male. This has obviously been a little uncertain judging ny a few of the recent posts.
Second, None of my experiences, nor my interpretations of them have been based on any religious faith as has been vaguely hinted at. I am not a religious person.
Third, I do indeed have a scientific background. I am involved in Analytical Chemistry and Cancer research at a nuclear research reactor in the University of Missouri.

Just a bit of background. Have to go again now. Back tomorrow.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 12:45 PM lfen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 8:36 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 2816 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 79 of 189 (162126)
11-21-2004 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by PurpleYouko
11-21-2004 6:41 PM


Re: Telepathy
I would have said that "unexplained intuition at a distance" would quite catagorically be classified as supernatural, at least by my definition of the term.

Well yes it could be. I am holding forth a hope, and nothing more than a hope, there might at some time emerge a scientific explanation of mind that might explain this so that it would be an ununderstood natural phenomena and not an intervention of a power about nature. It could also be some sort of misunderstood coincidence bolstered by bias. I mean we might have feelings from time to time that aren't confirmed to be accurate but we remember the few dramatic times they are confirmed.

lfen

edit: corrected accidently messed up subtitle

This message has been edited by lfen, 11-21-2004 09:18 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-21-2004 6:41 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-22-2004 9:30 AM lfen has not yet responded
 Message 81 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-22-2004 9:30 AM lfen has not yet responded
 Message 82 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-22-2004 9:30 AM lfen has not yet responded
 Message 83 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-22-2004 9:30 AM lfen has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 80 of 189 (162292)
11-22-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
11-21-2004 8:36 PM


Re: Telepathy
quote:
Well yes it could be. I am holding forth a hope, and nothing more than a hope, there might at some time emerge a scientific explanation of mind that might explain this so that it would be an ununderstood natural phenomena and not an intervention of a power about nature.

This is precisely what I have been saying all along. I never claimed any kind of higher power, just something as yet unexplained.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 8:36 PM lfen has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 81 of 189 (162293)
11-22-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
11-21-2004 8:36 PM


Re: Telepathy
Deleted duplicate

This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 11-22-2004 10:53 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 8:36 PM lfen has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 82 of 189 (162294)
11-22-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
11-21-2004 8:36 PM


Re: Telepathy
Deleted duplicate

This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 11-22-2004 10:54 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 8:36 PM lfen has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 83 of 189 (162295)
11-22-2004 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by lfen
11-21-2004 8:36 PM


Re: Telepathy
deleted duplicate

This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 11-22-2004 10:53 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 8:36 PM lfen has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 84 of 189 (162313)
11-22-2004 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by PurpleYouko
11-22-2004 9:30 AM


Randi Prize
http://www.randi.org/research/

There is a million dollar prize if you can prove some of these kinds of "supernatural" things.

Unlike what's-his-name's prize I think this one is winnable (have a look and tell us what you think).

What has happened over and over with these kinds of things is as they are examined more closely with good data they fade away. If you know enough about the situation and it is controlled well there is nothing there. If you don't know very much then there are many so-called mysteries.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by PurpleYouko, posted 11-22-2004 9:30 AM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12297
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 85 of 189 (162494)
11-23-2004 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by lfen
11-21-2004 12:58 PM


Re: General Semantic rephrasing
Actually, I did google qualia out of curiousity...you are right. That stuff is over my head!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by lfen, posted 11-21-2004 12:58 PM lfen has not yet responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 189 (162524)
11-23-2004 4:36 AM


qualia are an asnwer to a question that has not been asked. They are much more a semantic construction thatn a real one.
  
The Dread Dormammu
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 189 (164586)
12-02-2004 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Hangdawg13
11-21-2004 12:59 AM


When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
Hangdawg13 writes:

Let me ask you this though, if you had some friends that went on a trip to the mountains and came back and told you all about it, would you believe that they in fact went on the trip? Probably. You are biased because you have known them a long time and trust them completely. Furthermore they have no reason to lie to you.

Now if some friends told you about experiences with the supernatural, would you believe them? Probably not. Why? Because you are biased.

There is a bias but it is about something else.

There is a more subtle difference between the two scenarios. If I had never ever seen a mountan before I would be skecptical of my frends explanations for the phenomina they observed.

This doesn't mean that I would call them liars, but I might not immediatly beleve in mountans.

After I talked with my geologist frends who tell me that mountans exsist and show me pictures of mountans and discribe the theory behind mountans and so forth, I would be less sceptical that my frends had visited one. I would also become less skeptical if I were able to visit the mountan myself.

So, how do we deturmine what to be sceptical about? I have seen mountans in my life but I have never seen Everest, yet I am not any more skeptical of the exsistance of Everest than I am of mountans that I have seen.

Why? Becase my beleif in Everest dosn't require that any of my previous ideas about the world be revised. I know mountans exsist, so it shouldn't bother me that I have not seen a praticular mountan. I have no reason NOT to beleve in Everest.

Now what about ghosts? When my frends tell me that they have seen ghosts I am just as sceptical of ghosts as I would be of mountans, if I had never heard of them before. Ghosts DO require that a great deal of my previous observations about the world be revised. In order to beleve in ghosts, I have to beleve that there are objects that can be seen by some and not others, that objects are capable of becoming incorporial, and that there are intellgent beings made out of some kind of matter that I am unfamiliar with. So I DO have some reasons to be skeptical about ghosts.

When I counsult others about ghosts I find that there is a great deal of dissagreement. Having not seen ghosts myself I consult others. Where, in the case of mountans, there is a coherent theory for their exsistance and formation I find no coherant theory about what ghosts are or how they could operate, that doesn't require a radiacal reinterpritation of physics.

In fact there is so little in the way of explination that even if I DID see something that behaved like a ghost I would be more inclined to beleve that I had been halucinating than that ghosts exsist.

This is becase I understand what halucinations are and how they might work. I have no idea how Ghosts or spirits work.

In scince this happens all the time. Sometimes scientests will find some bizzare phenomina that they can't explain. This does not distroy exsisting theories UNTIL a new theory that explains BOTH the new phenomina and the old is formed.

If someone were to explain how ghosts might exsist AND show some good evedence I might very well change my mind. As this has not happened yet I remain skeptical.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Hangdawg13, posted 11-21-2004 12:59 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 88 of 189 (164624)
12-02-2004 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by The Dread Dormammu
12-02-2004 4:14 AM


Re: When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
Dormamu writes:

In scince this happens all the time. Sometimes scientests will find some bizzare phenomina that they can't explain. This does not distroy exsisting theories UNTIL a new theory that explains BOTH the new phenomina and the old is formed.

If someone were to explain how ghosts might exsist AND show some good evedence I might very well change my mind. As this has not happened yet I remain skeptical.

Now this is the open minded attitude that I have been trying to get across here.
Skeptisism is a very healthy thing and I don't expect anyone to beleive things that I tell them without significant evidence. However there is still a willingness to entertain the possibility that there might be something in it.

In my opinion, anyone who just catagorically states that something is impossible is the one suffering from delusions. There is no way to know if it is possible or not. We simply don't know enough about ghosts to make that kind of conclusion.

OK I know that we have no solid evidence (photos or that kind of stuff) that they exist. At least no solid evidence that anyone agrees on. Some people simply seem to have the ability to feel things that others can't or won't admit to. Photos have been published in magazines that claim to be real. When I look at them, I instantly get a feeling that they are either genuine or not. More often than not they aren't. I know other people who get this same feeling too.

I have run a few experiments on this kind of thing also. An example is that I found a whole bunch of photos that all claimed to be supernatural then performed the best blind experiment that I could manage by showing each one to 3 other people (in different rooms) who all claim to be able to feel the same as I can. 2 of the 3 agreed with me with exactly on almost all of the photos. The third didn't.

Needless to say, none of this was published as I was only 15 at the time but I was pretty happy that the outcome confirmed my own findings.

Another specific incident that always sticks in my mind involves a painting of (supposedly) my younger brother who died at birth. The painting was done by a self professed spiritualist and showed him at age 10 (approximately). The painting was presented to my mother when I was about 13. I took one look at it and almost screamed. The thing seemed to exude pure evil.

OK so far nothing special or unusual. right? just a kid imagining stuff? It gets more interesting.

I seemed to be able to feel this painting from anywhere in the house and it made me very uncomfortable so I persuaded my mum to put it out in the shed at the bottom of the yard. Now everything felt OK again.

Over the next couple of weeks I forgot about the painting until one day when I came home from school and as I opened the door, I felt like I was walking through the gates of hell (a bit melodramatic I admit). I walked straight up to my mum and asked her where she had put the painting. I knew it was back in the house. She told me that she had brought it into the house to test whether I could really sense it or not. It was face down in the cupboard under the stairs, under a pile of bed linen.

After that she was convinced and burned the painting.

If you have all day to read this stuff then I can keep churning out these personal accounts for ever. (there are a heck of a lot of them) I don't expect anyone to change their opinion but I would appreciate an open mind or even a logical alternative explanation.
At the very least you should be able to see why I am convinced that there is more weird stuff going on out there than conventional science presently knows about.

PY


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by The Dread Dormammu, posted 12-02-2004 4:14 AM The Dread Dormammu has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Stile, posted 12-02-2004 4:00 PM PurpleYouko has responded
 Message 91 by Ben!, posted 12-02-2004 4:20 PM PurpleYouko has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3465
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 4.3


Message 89 of 189 (164685)
12-02-2004 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by PurpleYouko
12-02-2004 9:32 AM


Re: When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
Have you ever heard of Synesthesia? I'm not saying it is the explanation for these events, but it certainly sounds like another possibility.

Synesthesia is a human (possibly animal as well?) phenomena where two or more senses are tied together. Usually involving sight as the 'mind created sensation accompanyment'. For example, a hearing/sight synesthete actually believes they can see music. When they hear sounds, the sensation input is also linked to their sight and their mind creates a visualization that complements that sound. The sensation connection can be so real and dependable that many synesthetes don't even know "regular" people do not experience the extra sensations untill even their late 20's (or even later), when they finally figure out they're actually seeing things others do not.

The most common form IIRC is almost a duplicate vision. Certain colours are associated with certain letters/symbols. As in the letter A would always be seen as red, and perhaps F is always seen as blue. With others this vision can come in the form of auras around people, that is, happy people are seen as.. say yellow while sad people are seen as brown. Sort of an extra condition on seeing a smile or a frown, obviously these are not the only things which physically indicate if a person is happy or sad.

I would like to suggest that perhaps you have a light form of this condition. Maybe your sight is somehow tied into your feelings (as you call it). Perhaps by seeing the state of your house, or looking at your mom, you could tell she was trying to hide something from you... causing the dreaded 'gates of hell' feeling you described.

Then again, I have no way of telling if this is what is going on. However, at the least, it is some cool information for anyone who was unaware of the phenomena.

Here's an MIT website on synesthesia if anyone's interested in more info. A google search turns up 80 000+ hits as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-02-2004 9:32 AM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-02-2004 4:18 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

    
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 90 of 189 (164689)
12-02-2004 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Stile
12-02-2004 4:00 PM


Re: When to beleve in mountans(or anything else).
Hey that is some COOL information.

I wasn't aware of this condition but it is one of the best possible explanations that I have heard. It could apply in certain circumstances but I don't see how this could be the answer when I experienced the feeling that I described as soon as I entered the house. This entry was through a garage and series of doors before I actually saw anybody.
Even if some other sensation could be transposed to a feeling of "walking through the gates of hell", it would still suggest that I actually experienced some other sensation to trigger it. Short of ESP, I can't think of any other place that sensation could have come from.
Either way, I knew the painting was back in the house and I was proved to be right, just as I have been proved right on numerous other occasions when similar (but not so severe) things happened.

Either something is really there or I have a sense beyond the normal ones that is playing tricks on me. I could accept either way.

PY

This message has been edited by PurpleYouko, 12-02-2004 04:19 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Stile, posted 12-02-2004 4:00 PM Stile has acknowledged this reply

  
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