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Author Topic:   What i can't understand about evolution....
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 2032 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 196 of 493 (492832)
01-03-2009 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by DevilsAdvocate
01-03-2009 5:32 AM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
BTW, if I go through my colleges restricted research portal and type the words "biological evolution" it comes up with 30,662 scientific articles. Of course you could also go to Google but it will be hard to weed out real peer-review scientific articles from the rest of the crap on the web.


For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-03-2009 5:32 AM DevilsAdvocate has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12719
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 197 of 493 (492836)
01-03-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-03-2009 3:04 AM


Re: and finally for now
Hi Seeking,

Please stop posting to this thread. Thanks.

Please post no replies to this message. Issues and concerns with discussion should be posted to Report discussion problems here: No.2.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-03-2009 3:04 AM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

RAZD
Member (Idle past 336 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 198 of 493 (492849)
01-03-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-03-2009 3:04 AM


Re: and finally for now - why you are restricted from this site
Hello one final time, seekingfirstthekingdom, as I see you have been asked to stop posting on this thread, and any further reply from you will result in suspension/s.

This is just to clear up some of your visible confusion.

Message 184
Without any proof of this single celled ancestor being able to multiply forth into the multitude of animals we see today,im afraid my point still stands.Theres no proof in the natural world today or the fossil record that this most astonishing organism even existed.

What you are replying to is the documentation of your misrepresentation of what rahvin said.

You also display a level of ignorance of science in general - no scientific theories can be proven, not one, no matter which science you pick.

Why am i repeating myself?I fully understand for the theory of evolution to have this type of beginning there must of been this amazing creature.However you cant point to it,and cant seem to replicate in a science lab either.Is there a possibility this wondrous creature never did what you guys are claiming it did?

You are repeating yourself because you have failed to learn that this concept is a false portrayal of evolution.

Message 185
Is there a possibilty similarities in our genetic structure are due to someone or something forming us to all cohabit on the planet?

Not really, not when you look at the genetic evidence that preserves the bits and pieces of shared genetics with other organisms, the markers that trace genetic history. Some of these markers are in neutral segments of DNA and don't have any effect on growth or development of the organisms, so reproducing them is pointless to a designer unless the goal is to deceive (your god = satan\loki\etc explanation).

Remembering ive asked all of you to come up with a ancestral line and only one seems to have managed it.Give me time, ill try to offer scientific reasons why i think it doesnt hold up to scrutiny.

No, you asked for a list of all the transitional fossils, a task that could fill pages in a book as thick as the origin of species, you mistake the fossil record for the theory of evolution, and you've displayed a level of ignorance that is sad to observe, yet you have the arrogance to think that your opinion counts.

Message 186
i can understand the practical implications of what discovering an organism like this holds.Basically you could seed the deserts,multiply endangered animals and solve food shortages.Im more than happy for it to be discovered.

And you fail to realize that this is not what the theory of evolution says.

The reasons you are now restricted from this site are (a) refusal to learn when you are wrong, and (b) failure to support your position regarding the amazing yeast with documentation showing this is found in scientific literature pertaining to evolution.

Neither of these behaviors are tolerated on the science threads.

I have started a new topic at Topic In Great Debate to address your concept:

Remedial Evolution: seekingfirstthekingdom and RAZD

Enjoy.

Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

Edited by RAZD, : added title of new thread


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-03-2009 3:04 AM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 199 of 493 (492851)
01-03-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-03-2009 12:53 AM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
To clarify what "honest" discussion means:

I was not referring to dishonesty in the sense of lying but rather in the sense of not debating "in good faith".

You do not pay attention to and engage with the replies you receive. You continue to display arrogance as if you actually knew something.
You refuse to learn anything at all. You waste peoples time, in other words.

You are not contributing to the thread so it is appropriate that you stop posting. Try to learn from this.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-03-2009 12:53 AM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:32 PM AdminNosy has not yet responded

Agobot
Member (Idle past 4461 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 200 of 493 (492873)
01-03-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by cavediver
01-03-2009 4:48 AM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
cavediver writes:

Only if that someone or something is an idiot or severely limited in its creative abilities. Why else would that someone/thing give the octopus a fantastic eye, yet the rest of us tetrapods this ridiculous back-to-front eye with a blind spot? Why have I, a bipedal man, the same bone structure as my quadrpedal relatives? Was I designed to get severe back-ache? What idiot thought it would be a good idea to use the same opening for respiration and ingestion of food, leading to death by choking? And why are my genitalia in such an exposed position? As a quadruped, they're nicely protected, but as soon as I stand upright, they're there for all to attack. Talking of genitalia, why is my body's sewage system integrated with my love-making apparatus either your someone/thing really hates us, or it's a complete fool.

Interestingly, the reasons for all of these issues become astonishingly clear when we consider evolution...

This makes perfect sense but if only human beings of all species were perfect beings, with perfectly designed and constructed bodies, who would believe in the theory of evolution? Short answer - no one. How would the world function? It wouldn't be anything close to what it's now. People would be discouraged to pursue science in a world that's ruled by an entity. Try teaching Evolution to children in Palestine and Iran, you can't. They are brainwashed and will laugh at the thesises of the TOE. I imagine something like that would have happened if we, of all species, were physically perfect. The world would be a terrible place, run by religion, governed by fundamentalists like the Taliban where our society would be something close to that of Afghanistan. In terms of development, I'd say we would still be in the Dark Ages, if not right in the Stone Age. People would disobey anyone and everyone on the premise that god says so. How would you enforce laws in such a "society"? How would you control people?
Realistically, our development rests heavily on the abolishment of the idea of god.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by cavediver, posted 01-03-2009 4:48 AM cavediver has not yet responded

seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 201 of 493 (492958)
01-04-2009 8:14 PM


greetings
i have to once again apologise for the brief replies im about to give.We are visiting my mother in law and ive managed to slip away with the excuse i need to find research material and im at the local library.Im not sure how long i can stay here.
quote:
Evolution does not require a single common ancestor.

Strange.I have the ancestors tale sitting right in front of me and the words to describe our initial ancestor is a single celled protozoa.His words in the inside cover talk of a final pilgrimage is taken together by all living things back to the origin of life itself.Thats not a common ancestor or him alluding to a common ancestor?Ok.

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 8:46 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded
 Message 239 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2009 6:49 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 202 of 493 (492959)
01-04-2009 8:24 PM


quote:
you mistake the fossil record for the theory of evolution

I certainly dont.Merely asking for clarification and looking for some sort of agreement from you that the fossil record so far doesnt support the fact of evolution.You counter it with that the fossil record isnt needed.I can accept this.The amazing single celled magic organism must of existed,for evolution IS FACT.I read you loud and clear.This organism for all intents and purposes only seems to exist in evolutionary textbooks,but because T.O.E is infallible only an idiot like myself would dare question it or ask for some sort of tangible evidence.Maybe i need to read more evolutionary books to be able to visualise this magnificent creature.Maybe only then would it become real to me like it is to you guys.

Edited by seekingfirstthekingdom, : spelling


Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 9:06 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded
 Message 212 by Blue Jay, posted 01-04-2009 9:32 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded
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seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 203 of 493 (492960)
01-04-2009 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by AdminNosy
01-03-2009 10:02 AM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
quote:
You do not pay attention to and engage with the replies you receive

Ive explained why this is.I simply do not have the time.Plus posters have offered things that deserve better than off the cuff answers.I have told huntard and to a lesser extent razd(who has challenged me on certain things) that i will attempt to answer.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:37 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded
 Message 208 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 9:16 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 01-05-2009 8:45 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 204 of 493 (492961)
01-04-2009 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-04-2009 8:32 PM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
quote:
You continue to display arrogance as if you actually knew something
.
Offering another point of view.I can handle you calling me arrogant just as long as you can handle me pointing a few things out to you guys.I got the feeling you cant.Im done replying to you, its off topic cupcake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:32 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 205 of 493 (492962)
01-04-2009 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-04-2009 8:14 PM


Re: greetings
quote:
i have to once again apologise for the brief replies im about to give.We are visiting my mother in law and ive managed to slip away with the excuse i need to find research material and im at the local library.Im not sure how long i can stay here.

Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like an excuse for not actually addressing issues raised, particularly since it seems unlikely that a library would be open late Sunday evening. In any event....

In replying to this:

quote:
Evolution does not require a single common ancestor.
you said:

quote:
Strange.I have the ancestors tale sitting right in front of me and the words to describe our initial ancestor is a single celled protozoa.His words in the inside cover talk of a final pilgrimage is taken together by all living things back to the origin of life itself.Thats not a common ancestor or him alluding to a common ancestor?Ok.

You are confusing the observed fact of evolutionary change with the part of the ToE that proposes that all life comes from a single common ancestor. Evolution is an observable fact. Part of the ToE describes the mechanisms for descent with modification. Another part suggests the common ancestor. Even if it turns out that there was not a common ancestor, that would not disprove the observed fact of descent with modification, nor the proposed mechanism, natural selection together with genetic mutation.

Also, if you had read this entire thread before posting, you would have seen these tips, courtesy of RAZD:

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quotes are easy

or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
quotes are easy

also check out (help) links on any formating questions when in the reply window.

For other formating tips see Posting Tips

If you use the message reply buttons (there's one at the bottom right of each message):


... your message is linked to the one you are replying to (adds clarity). You can also look at the way a post is formated with the "peek" button next to it.

In particular, I'll suggest that you use the reply button at the bottom of the message you are replying to as an aid to clarity of communication. This is helpful because there are often multiple lines of debate occurring at any given time in any given thread.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:14 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 9:15 PM subbie has responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 206 of 493 (492963)
01-04-2009 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-04-2009 8:24 PM


quote:
Merely asking for clarification and looking for some sort of agreement from you that the fossil record so far doesnt support the fact of evolution.

The fossil record supports the ToE, the observed fact of evolution and the theory of a common ancestor. It is not, however, the only or even the most important supporting evidence.

quote:
The amazing single celled magic organism must of existed,for evolution IS FACT

Again, you are confusing the observed fact of evolution with the theory of a common ancestor. Not the same thing. Also, just for a bit of fun, you sound like an illiterate third-grader when you say "must of" instead of "must have."

quote:
...because T.O.E is infallible ...

I daresay you cannot find any credible scientist who has said or ever will say that the ToE is infallible. This is nothing more than more misunderstanding on your part, or a straw man. One way or the other, it has no relation to reality.

quote:
only an idiot like myself would dare question it or ask for some sort of tangible evidence.

Please. None of us here is naive enough to believe that all you are doing is asking for tangible evidence. You are here to try to poke holes in something you don't even really understand in the first place. Were it otherwise, you'd actually address and discuss the evidence that has been supplied here. Unless and until you actually do that, rather than toss out lame excuses for not doing so, the only natural conclusion to come to is that you are not seeking evidence, but simply being an annoyance. Fortunately, most of us here have considerable experience with annoyances so can tolerate them to one degree or another.

Just in case you wanted to dispute my conclusion that you're being an annoyance, I offer this quote:

quote:
Maybe i need to read more evolutionary books to be able to visualise this magnificent creature.Maybe only then would it become real to me like it is to you guys.

I suspect that the actual existence of a single common ancestor for all life on this planet is not something that people here are conclusively convinced of. Instead, it is something that is tentatively accepted as actually existing based on a certain level of evidence suggesting that such an organism did exist, subject to revision in the event of discovery of contrary evidence.

You should try to keep in mind that the scientific mind set is not one of complete conviction of the accuracy of any scientific theory, or even observed fact for that matter. That type of 100% certainty belongs to the realm of religion. Science is instead our best, tentative guess based on the evidence and explanations offered at any particular time.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:24 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 207 of 493 (492966)
01-04-2009 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by subbie
01-04-2009 8:46 PM


Re: greetings
quote:
Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like an excuse for not actually addressing issues raised, particularly since it seems unlikely that a library would be open late Sunday evening.

Are you serious?Are you actually implying i live in the same country as you and therefore must be lying?.Look at the date i signed up and look how long it took to start posting here.That might give you a clue.Ill just have to quit everything else in my life just to concentrate on this forum.
quote:
Again, you are confusing the observed fact of evolution with the theory of a common ancestor.

No im not.Its all the same thing as far as im concerned.I can lump abiogenesis in with the theory of evolution as well.I dont care what special definitions you have for it.Bottom line.No creator is needed here.

Edited by seekingfirstthekingdom, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 8:46 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 9:21 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded
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subbie
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 208 of 493 (492967)
01-04-2009 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-04-2009 8:32 PM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
quote:
Plus posters have offered things that deserve better than off the cuff answers.

Virtually every post you've replied to in this thread deserves better than off the cuff answers, but that hasn't stopped you.

quote:
.I have told huntard and to a lesser extent razd(who has challenged me on certain things) that i will attempt to answer.

And Huntard, RAZD, and nearly every other regular poster here has come across countless cdesign proponentists who've trotted in spouting nonsense followed by assurances that they would provide substantive responses to those who reply to them, only to watch them fade away back into teh interwebs, leaving nothing behind but drivel. Your posting pattern is suspiciously similar to that type, so you're going to have to put up with repeated requests for substance unless and until you actually provide some.

Also, just in case you missed it, if you're feeling overwhelmed by the flood of responses you're getting, you can go to this thread, where the participation will be limited to you and RAZD. I know RAZD well enough to assure you that he's willing to wait as long as it takes you to put together something more than an off the cuff response, with no pressure whatsoever to meet any time table. So, if you're truly serious about asking real questions and getting real answers, just trot yourself over to that thread and jump right in.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 8:32 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 9:23 PM subbie has not yet responded

subbie
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 209 of 493 (492968)
01-04-2009 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by seekingfirstthekingdom
01-04-2009 9:15 PM


Re: greetings
quote:
and therefore must be lying?

Oh for fuck's sake, unwad your panties. I never said you "must be lying." I simply said it sounds suspiciously like a lame excuse for not responding to substance. What's more, your sarcastic response does little to disabuse me of my suspicions since you again failed to provide a substantive response to the other points I made in the post.

quote:
Ill just have to quit everything else in my life just to concentrate on this forum.

Our loss would be the gain of the rest of those involved in your life, I'm sure.

{ABE - to reply to your edit}

quote:
No im not.Its all the same thing as far as im concerned.I can lump abiogenesis in with the theory of evolution as well.I dont care what special definitions you have for it.Bottom line.No creator is needed here.

Well, you are certainly free to argue against any position you care to. However, by refusing to recognize the usages that scientists actually employ, you cease arguing against what scientists say, and drift into the realm of what we call "straw man arguments." That's where you misdescribe the position held by your opponent then argue against that misdescription. It's one way to win an argument, I suppose, but since you're not winning an argument against a real opponent, but instead against a straw man, it's not particularly intellectually satisfying.

Edited by subbie, : As noted.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 9:15 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

seekingfirstthekingdom
Member (Idle past 4482 days)
Posts: 51
Joined: 08-15-2008


Message 210 of 493 (492969)
01-04-2009 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by subbie
01-04-2009 9:16 PM


Re: Start conducting an honest discussion, Seeking
quote:
None of us here is naive enough to believe that all you are doing is asking for tangible evidence.

I am.All you are doing to calling me retarded.Im getting very very suspicious now that what im asking for cant be provided.Maybe i should just show a bit more faith huh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by subbie, posted 01-04-2009 9:16 PM subbie has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by seekingfirstthekingdom, posted 01-04-2009 9:26 PM seekingfirstthekingdom has not yet responded

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