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Author Topic:   Speciation + Evolution = More Diversity
westernjoe
Junior Member (Idle past 3869 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 01-09-2007


Message 16 of 47 (493461)
01-08-2009 11:24 PM


here was your question:

What mechanism prohibits the micro-evolutionary events that everyone admits occur from adding up to a macro-evolutionary event over time?

so why is it off-topic for you to define what "evolution" is? why is that so difficult for you? I cannot answer your challenge without you first giving me an accurate definition of what evolution (micro and/or macro is)....if you do not care to do so then the discussion is pointless. My argument against your challenge is that "micro" evolution doesn't even exist, as defined by your theory.

It seems to me you've attempted to get around the real issue by defining your theory in a very broad way, as something like "heritable changes over time." but the problem is, ToE was constructed to explain the buildup of genomes...therefore, any ole change in bodies does nothing to explain where genomes came from...that's why ToE must have a tie to changes in dna sequences. So just take a deep breath, invest a minute or so, and define the theory of evolution. I would also like to know if you believe micro and macro are accomplished via the same mechanism. Take your time....I'll be waiting...this is going to be fun.

Edited by westernjoe, : No reason given.

Edited by westernjoe, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by RAZD, posted 01-08-2009 11:41 PM westernjoe has not yet responded
 Message 18 by AdminNosy, posted 01-09-2009 1:58 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 17 of 47 (493463)
01-08-2009 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by westernjoe
01-08-2009 11:24 PM


you are STILL off topic -- Admins please note
hi westernjoe,


This is the third time I have requested you go to Message 193 to discuss the definition of evolution. Notice that the topic of that thread IS the definition of evolution.

here was your question:

No, that was Coyote, and he was also off-topic, if you read for comprehension you could see that.

CLICK ON THIS LINK TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION
"Message 193"
STOP WASTING THIS THREAD WITH OFF-TOPIC BANTER

Take your time....I'll be waiting...this is going to be fun.


Curiously you can wait forever on this thread and keep mucking it up OR you can go to the thread that IS about the topic you want to discuss and continue there.

The link provided is to a thread titled "Definition of Evolution" so if you want to continue a discussion of what the definition is, THAT IS THE THREAD TO DO IT ON.

What part about "Go to the link provided - to the thread actually titled the 'Definition of Evolution' to discuss the definition of evolution" - don't you understand?

so why is it off-topic for you to define what "evolution" is? why is that so difficult for you? I cannot answer your challenge without you first giving me an accurate definition of what evolution (micro and/or macro is)....if you do not care to do so then the discussion is pointless. My argument against your challenge is that "micro" evolution doesn't even exist, as defined by your theory.

I find it rather humorous that someone who purports to want to engage in an intelligent and reason based discussion on this topic, cannot figure out that they can do so ON THE THREAD LINKED ABOVE.

my reply is here: Message 193

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : grow a clue eh?

Edited by RAZD, : highlighted the THIRD time

Edited by RAZD, : ...

Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

Edited by RAZD, : hide

Edited by RAZD, : youme


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 18 of 47 (493477)
01-09-2009 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by westernjoe
01-08-2009 11:24 PM


Warning for WesternJoe
WJ, we try very hard to keep threads on a reasonably well-focused topics. This particular thread is very narrowly defined.

You have been asked to stay with the topic. If you don't want to then do not post to this thread at all. There are plenty of other places for you to post and you could start your own thread.

If you fail to control yourself you will receive short (and longer) suspensions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by westernjoe, posted 01-08-2009 11:24 PM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
westernjoe
Junior Member (Idle past 3869 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 01-09-2007


Message 19 of 47 (493517)
01-09-2009 8:53 AM


I'm absolutely on-topic, as I am disputing your very premise, which is your definition of evolution.

Evolution - the change in hereditary traits in populations from generation to generation

http://www.williamjhudson.net/evolution/glossary.html

"Evolution: A change in the gene pool of a population over time. The process of evolution can be summarized in three sentences: Genes mutate. Individuals are selected. Populations evolve."

You then asked for a "mechanism" that would stop this so-called evolution from turning into macro evolution......but by doing so you are assuming that your mechanism of microevolution actually exists. I have challenged you to show me an example and you refuse to do it. If you don't care to debate fine. If you can't even present one example of evolution, as your theory defines it, then I suppose the debate is over. But you must also realize that it is then wrong-headed of you to expect others to present a mechanism that will somehow stop a mechanism of which doesn't even exist. In otherwords, you've constructed a strawman of an argument.

Edited by westernjoe, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2009 7:08 PM westernjoe has not yet responded
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 01-10-2009 4:31 PM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
westernjoe
Junior Member (Idle past 3869 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 01-09-2007


Message 20 of 47 (493519)
01-09-2009 8:58 AM


and let's get to your next point -- which is also highly on-topic:

Speciation - the division of parent populations into reproductively isolated daughter populations - is also an observed and documented fact, a process that occurs frequently in the natural world around us.

I dispute this because you don't even know what a "species" is. Darwinians call different varieties of finches different "speices" yet most of them can interbreed and produce viable, fertile offspring. Same with different varieties of bears. The polar bear and brown bear can produce fertilie offspring as well, yet' they're labled different "species." Finally, your statement is assuming that the "speciation" process happens via the mechanism propped up by darwinists.....which is "changes in gene frequencies over time." This, as well, I dispute and you are welcome to show me an example showing otherwise.

If you are going to create a new post and make unfounded assertions, you should expect people to take you up on them.


Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2009 7:34 PM westernjoe has not yet responded
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westernjoe
Junior Member (Idle past 3869 days)
Posts: 9
Joined: 01-09-2007


Message 21 of 47 (493521)
01-09-2009 9:01 AM


And to the Admin, if you can't keep your big nose out of the way so I can expose this sham of the theory then I'll move on. Go ahead and ban me, who cares. RAFD is too chicken to debate the topic he brought up anyway...I'm getting bored.

Edited by westernjoe, : No reason given.


Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Huntard, posted 01-09-2009 9:16 AM westernjoe has not yet responded
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 607 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 22 of 47 (493524)
01-09-2009 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 9:01 AM


And to the Admin, if you can't keep your big nose out of the way so I can expose this sham of the theory then I'll move on.

You're free to expose this "sham", just not on this thread. Start a new in this forum. You don't have to move on, you can make a thread about it right there. And once it gets promoted, you can discuss it with RAZD (or others) as much as you like. Further, I would not advise being that hostile to admins.

Go ahead and ban me, who cares.

I don't think he'll ban you outright, normally, people are suspended for a short time first, then increasingly longer times, until they finally are banned.

RAFD is too chicken to debate the topic he brought up anyway...I'm getting bored.

Even more reason to start a new topic about it. There are people that are interested in discussing this.


I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 9:01 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 23 of 47 (493599)
01-09-2009 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 8:53 AM


you are of topic
westernjoe

I'm absolutely on-topic,


one wonders if you are unable to realize that your reply is already posted, and that you are unable to follow links provided.

CLICK ON THIS LINK TO CONTINUE THIS DISCUSSION
"Message 193"
STOP WASTING THIS THREAD WITH OFF-TOPIC BANTER

The alternative explanation is that your only purpose is disruption of discussions.


my reply is here: Message 193

Edited by RAZD, : hide

Edited by RAZD, : youme


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 8:53 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 24 of 47 (493602)
01-09-2009 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 8:58 AM


still off topic - now in another direction.
well westernjoe, another diversion off-topic?
another attempt to disrupt the discussion of increased diversity after speciation, the topic of this thread?

I dispute this because you don't even know what a "species" is.


This can be discussed on the Definition of Species thread.

The reason that these comments of yours are off-topic, is that these definitions HAVE been discussed, and we don't need to tie up this thread discussing them all over again. IF you have a problem with the definitions presented, then go to the threads that discuss those definitions.

If you are going to create a new post and make unfounded assertions, you should expect people to take you up on them.

Curiously these definitions are anything but unfounded assertions, which you would realize if you followed the links to where they are discussed.

Click on this link to go to the thread to discuss the 'Definition of Evolution

Click on this link to go to the thread to discuss the 'Definition of Species

This thread begins with these definitions, so if you want to dispute them then go to the appropriate threads to do so.

If you can't understand this simple request then I will have to ask that this thread be close in order to keep you off it.


my reply is here: Message 21

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : hide


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 8:58 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by AdminNosy, posted 01-09-2009 7:56 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 25 of 47 (493605)
01-09-2009 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 9:01 AM


Expect a suspension for insulting admins and continued disruptive behavior
well westernjoe, I expect to see you suspended soon.

And to the Admin, if you can't keep your big nose out of the way so I can expose this sham of the theory then I'll move on. Go ahead and ban me, who cares. RAFD is too chicken to debate the topic he brought up anyway...I'm getting bored.

What is hilarious about all this petty posturing of yours, is that it is a completely ridiculous position when you look at the FACT that your posts have been quoted and replied to, and all your need to do is go to the appropriate threads, that the only thing keeping you from the discussion is your inability to realize this.

Once again, my reply is here: Message 193


Click on this link to go to the thread to discuss the 'Definition of Evolution

Click on this link to go to the thread to discuss the 'Definition of Species

They say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Now if you really want some fun, try those links. If on the other hand, all you want to do is to continue to disrupt this thread then I will have to ask that it be closed.

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : hide


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 9:01 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 01-09-2009 7:49 PM RAZD has responded

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 26 of 47 (493606)
01-09-2009 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
01-09-2009 7:42 PM


Re: Expect a suspension for insulting admins and continued disruptive behavior
I'd suggest that, at this point, the best option is to simply stop feeding the troll.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2009 7:42 PM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 27 of 47 (493608)
01-09-2009 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
01-09-2009 7:34 PM


Thread closer
It won't be closed. WJ will be if necessary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 01-09-2009 7:34 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 28 of 47 (493757)
01-10-2009 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 8:53 AM


threads are limited in length to ~300 posts
westernjoe

... I am disputing ... your definition of evolution.

your reply is here (put your cursor over these words and right click to activate this link)

Enjoy.

Edited by RAZD, : ..


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 8:53 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 29 of 47 (493763)
01-10-2009 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by westernjoe
01-09-2009 8:58 AM


replies to your posts are on the linked threads - follow them to continue ....
westernjoe,

I dispute this because you don't even know what a "species" is.

your reply is here (put your cursor over these words and right click to activate this link)

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by westernjoe, posted 01-09-2009 8:58 AM westernjoe has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20232
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 30 of 47 (493767)
01-10-2009 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Rahvin
01-09-2009 7:49 PM


Re: Expect a suspension for insulting admins and continued disruptive behavior
hey Rahvin,

I'd suggest that, at this point, the best option is to simply stop feeding the troll.

A troll doesn't cite evolution textbooks, I think he just doesn't understand (1) how many different threads there are on this site, (2) that these topics have already been discussed before, (3) that a thread dedicated to the Definition of Evolution is a better thread to discuss Definition of Evolution than any one he currently happens to be on, (4) that a thread dedicated to the Definition of Species is a better thread to discuss Definition of Species than any one he currently happens to be on, (5) that threads are limited to ~300 posts, so content that is not part of the thread debate wastes space, and (6) that I am more than ready and willing to debate him on these points on their proper threads, and have in fact already started there.

Plus, I would like to see more about his spirit dog concept.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 01-09-2009 7:49 PM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
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