Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 76 (8908 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 05-20-2019 6:44 PM
19 online now:
dwise1, Tanypteryx, Theodoric (3 members, 16 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WeloTemo
Happy Birthday: Percy
Post Volume:
Total: 851,663 Year: 6,700/19,786 Month: 1,241/1,581 Week: 63/393 Day: 46/17 Hour: 0/4


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
4567
8
9Next
Author Topic:   World's Happiest People? You Gotta Be Kidding!
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6563
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 106 of 123 (60289)
10-09-2003 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by NosyNed
10-09-2003 3:02 AM


Re: What?
quote:
I'm sure we are all aware of the social sciences. However, I don't think anyone has actually discussed the science behind this survey (or whatever).

It may well be very accurate. It may be junk science.

I haven't seen a scarp posted to pick either side.



This is precisely my intended point. I apologize if I wasn't clear.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 3:02 AM NosyNed has not yet responded

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 2686 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 107 of 123 (60308)
10-09-2003 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Chiroptera
10-09-2003 2:15 PM


Re: What?
All:

www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=15&t=86&m=125#125 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=15&t=86&m=125#125">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=15&t=86&m=125#125

Since it's come up in the last few posts, I refer you to a recent catalog of the ages of active posters.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 2:15 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 123 (60372)
10-10-2003 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Chiroptera
10-09-2003 2:15 PM


Re: What?
quote:
Since some implications of your statements is that Islam is by nature a violent religion bent on world domination and so Muslims are dangerous people, which are not true, I would consider such statements defamatory.

I've never said Muslims, perse, are a dangerous people. My statements and quotes were to show that the prophet himself practiced violence against "infidels" and taught that his followers should also make violent war against same. Nothing in the Bible teaches that we Christians should do violence to anyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Chiroptera, posted 10-09-2003 2:15 PM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-10-2003 4:35 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 118 by nator, posted 10-12-2003 12:51 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 123 (60374)
10-10-2003 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by nator
10-09-2003 10:07 AM


Re: What?
quote:
So, you consider my doing nothing other than quoting the Bible to give examples of God's directives to persecute or kill unbelievers as 'meanspirited' and 'insulting'?

That's my only post in this thread; a long list of bible quotes.

Perhaps you are confusing Zhimbo and me.


No, that's not so. I've got my threads confused, and I apologize for that. Your insults were in another thread. I'm willing to address your posts anytime, so long as you act civil towards me.

Your list of Bible quotes in no way admonished Christians to do violence to anyone. They were for a specific nation at a specific time in history. Not so with my quotes from the Quran. They apply to the here and now, as demonstrated by the most devout Muslims who are willing to pay the price and as appied to the bussed in terrorists in the Nigerian riots.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by nator, posted 10-09-2003 10:07 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nator, posted 10-12-2003 1:12 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 123 (60376)
10-10-2003 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by NosyNed
10-09-2003 3:04 AM


Re: The Survey
quote:
haven't read this yet. But finally it seems it might be appropriate to actually read something about the real survey.
Buz you should have posted a link to it in the first place.

You're right I should have done that. The following link is the one I read:
www.allafrica.com/stories/200310030073.html


This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by NosyNed, posted 10-09-2003 3:04 AM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2003 3:01 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 111 of 123 (60385)
10-10-2003 3:01 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 1:13 AM


Re: The Survey
This is very unfortunate. What you have posted is a popular news bureau's reference (without direct quotes ) to a secondary source discussing the original material.

If what I found is the original material then my guess is that New Scientist has Nigeria happiest on *a per GNP basis*. This is what I see in the graph I found. The "per GNP" got lost in the shuffle somehow.

When there is controversy Buz, or you don't accept the results of work of this type. It is important to get back to the original material and understand it. It is not a good idea to hop on something that is twice removed from the original.

I still don't know if I've gotten to the right source but what I did find gives an interpretation that is more believable for all of us I think.

And the Nigerians are still pretty happy by the results shown. What I haven't dug into is what "happy" means in this context.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 1:13 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 10:04 PM NosyNed has responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 123 (60394)
10-10-2003 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 12:39 AM


Re: What?
quote:
I've never said Muslims, perse, are a dangerous people. My statements and quotes were to show that the prophet himself practiced violence against "infidels" and taught that his followers should also make violent war against same. Nothing in the Bible teaches that we Christians should do violence to anyone.

...and I suppose those 'violence' quotes Schraf posted are not from your Bible?

Prophet Muhammad did lead wars during his life, but the earlier ones were self-defense (repelling attacks from Makkah pagans) and none as agression. The later wars were expansionistic, but these happened because the first Muslims want to liberate themselves from the Roman and Persian hegemony. Violence without reason is forbidden in Islam and the religious penalty for such offenses are severe.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:39 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by PaulK, posted 10-10-2003 9:50 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded
 Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 10:25 PM Andya Primanda has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14930
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 113 of 123 (60414)
10-10-2003 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Andya Primanda
10-10-2003 4:35 AM


Re: What?
Please read this

Mahathir calls for peaceful Islam


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-10-2003 4:35 AM Andya Primanda has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 123 (60486)
10-10-2003 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by NosyNed
10-10-2003 3:01 AM


Re: The Survey
If what I found is the original material then my guess is that New
quote:
Scientist has Nigeria happiest on *a per GNP basis*. This is what I see in the graph I found. The "per GNP" got lost in the shuffle somehow.

When there is controversy Buz, or you don't accept the results of work of this type. It is important to get back to the original material and understand it. It is not a good idea to hop on something that is twice removed from the original.


The report was on pretty much all the major networks, all reporting it about the same. I think it came to my attention originally via one of these networks. Let us know what you find.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2003 3:01 AM NosyNed has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by NosyNed, posted 10-11-2003 2:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 123 (60487)
10-10-2003 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Andya Primanda
10-10-2003 4:35 AM


Re: What?
quote:
...and I suppose those 'violence' quotes Schraf posted are not from your Bible?

But which of Schraf's Biblical quotes instructs anyone other than a designated unique ancient nation to kill anyone? Which of these allow for Christians to persecute, enslave or kill anyone, including people who Jesus or Christians consider as "infidels?"

quote:

Prophet Muhammad did lead wars during his life, but the earlier ones were self-defense (repelling attacks from Makkah pagans) and none as agression. The later wars were expansionistic, but these happened because the first Muslims want to liberate themselves from the Roman and Persian hegemony. Violence without reason is forbidden in Islam and the religious penalty for such offenses are severe.

Before Muhammed there were over 200 pagan deities worshipped at Mecca. After Muhammed there was one deity, Muhammed's god, Allah worshipped at Mecca. Does this tell you anything as to why the pagans resisted Muhammed?

According to my Encyclopedia Britannica and other reliable sources, Mohammed had all the men (hundreds) in one Jewish village beheaded who had surrendered and carried off the women and children for the slave trade. Are you aware of this or can you refute it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-10-2003 4:35 AM Andya Primanda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Andya Primanda, posted 10-11-2003 4:41 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 123 (60498)
10-11-2003 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 10:25 PM


Re: What?
quote:
Before Muhammed there were over 200 pagan deities worshipped at Mecca. After Muhammed there was one deity, Muhammed's god, Allah worshipped at Mecca. Does this tell you anything as to why the pagans resisted Muhammed?

The Prophet was chased out of Makkah by the pagans. The pagans also tortured early Muslims. And the first war in his time, the Badr war, was provoked by Makkah pagans who was jealous of the Madinah state. The second war, the Uhud war, was also a pagan attack to Madinah. Then the pagans blockaded Madinah. These events would have make life miserable for the Prophet and his followers, yet when they eventually got the upper hand and marched to conquer Makkah, Prophet Muhammad ordered to spare the pagans. The only victims in the conquest of Makkah was the pagan statues, destroyed like Prophet Ibrahim did earlier.

Here's a link to a 'sirah' (history) of Prophet Muhammad's life.
http://www.muslimaccess.com/sunnah/seerah/Default.htm

quote:
According to my Encyclopedia Britannica and other reliable sources, Mohammed had all the men (hundreds) in one Jewish village beheaded who had surrendered and carried off the women and children for the slave trade. Are you aware of this or can you refute it?

This following article may refute it. Some quotes:

IT IS WELL KNOWN THAT at the advent of Islam there were three Jewish tribes who lived in Yathrib (later Medina), as well as other Jewish settlements further to the north, the most important of which were Khaybar and Fadak. It is also generally accepted that at first the Prophet Muhammad hoped that the Jews of Yathrib, as followers of a divine religion, would show understanding of the new monotheistic religion, Islam. However, as soon as these tribes realized that Islam was being firmly established and gaining power, they adopted an actively hostile attitude, and the final result of the struggle was the disappearance of these Jewish communities from Arabia proper.
...
On examination, details of the story can he challenged. It can be demonstrated that the assertion that 600 or 800 or 900 men of Banu Qurayza were put to death in cold blood can not be true; that it is a later invention; and that it has its source in Jewish traditions. Indeed the source of the details in earlier Jewish history can be pointed out with surprising accuracy.
...
So then the real source of this unacceptable story of slaughter was the descendants of the Jews of Medina, from whom Ibn Ishaq took these "odd tales". For doing so Ibn Ishaq was severely criticized by other scholars and historians and was called by Malik an impostor.

The sources of the story are, therefore, extremely doubtful and the details are diametrically opposed to the spirit of Islam and the rules of the Qur'an to make the story credible. Credible authority is lacking, and circumstantial evidence does not support it. This means that the story is more than doubtful.

Original article title:
Ahmad, Barakat. 1976. Did Prophet Muhammad ordered 900 Jews killed? Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland pp. 100-107.

[edit to add article title]

[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 10-11-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 10:25 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.8


Message 117 of 123 (60533)
10-11-2003 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 10:04 PM


Re: The Survey
Buz, I hope you don't take the fact that it was on "all the major networks" as being independant corroboration of the material. This is almost always the case. My guess is that they were all lifting from the New Scientists article or a single science writer who supplied it on a wire service. It doesn't matter how many times something is repeated, it can still be wrong. That is why it is necessary to go back to the sources.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 10:04 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 118 of 123 (60580)
10-12-2003 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 12:39 AM


Re: What?
quote:
Nothing in the Bible teaches that we Christians should do violence to anyone.

Maybe you read a different Bible than everybody else?

Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.--2 Chron: 15:13

(There's more where this came from, but it is the most blatant directive I could find.)

[This message has been edited by schrafinator, 10-11-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:39 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 119 of 123 (60582)
10-12-2003 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
10-10-2003 12:51 AM


Re: What?
quote:
Not so with my quotes from the Quran. They apply to the here and now, as demonstrated by the most devout Muslims who are willing to pay the price and as appied to the bussed in terrorists in the Nigerian riots.

Buz, what about the century-long reign of terror that white Christian racists, including the Klu Klux Klan, inflicted upon the South?

Even before that, the Bible was used as justification for the owning of human beings as slaves in our country.

What about the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the murders of gynocologists, Eric Rudolph (a member of a nutso Christian group and the Olympic Park Bomber who hid out in the NC woods for years), etc.

The Bible was used as justification to terrorize and murder untold numbers of people over the centuries. Most of the current extreme right-wing extremist groups in the US identify, some quite strongly, as Christian groups.

You just seem to be utterly and completely blind to this reality in your own religion while seeing nothing but the equivalent side to Islam.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 10-10-2003 12:51 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 120 of 123 (60587)
10-12-2003 2:08 AM


Need for a new thread?
Ned seems to be attempting to keep this thread on the topic of the happiness study. Maybe the comments comparing Islam to Christianity could be moved to a new thread?

If everyone is finished with the happiness thread, let me know and I'll close this one down.

------------------
AdminAsgara
Queen of the Universe


Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 10-13-2003 9:29 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

    
Prev1
...
4567
8
9Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019