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Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Huntard Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
This thread is meant to be a conituation of the excellent discussion I've had with Peg in the Help in teaching 11-12 Year olds (RE (Religious Education) in the UK) Thread.
I copied my last reply from that thread here:
What I'd like to focus on here is how kinds are defined (according to Peg, they must be interfertile). The current definition however, means that common housecats and lions are not of the same kind, as they aren't interfertile. So, Peg, would you like to change your definition, or was there more then one cat kind on the ark? I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
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AdminModulous Administrator (Idle past 1344 days) Posts: 897 Joined: |
I am course glad to see issues being put into a new thread, so I'm inclined to promote this despite not being entirely happy with the title (I can't put my finger on exactly why).
Anyway - where would you like this? Bible Study or Biological Evolution (or somewhere else?) Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
Hmm, yes, it's a bit difficult to place this. I guess "Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution", then?
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
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Admin Director Posts: 12793 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
Thread copied here from the Species/Kinds (for Peg...and others) thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4170 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
Yes, it seems you are right and in looking into this further I realise that, in regard to cats, i did not take into consideration that Genesis diferentiates between the 'domestic' and 'wild' animals. Genesis 1:24-25 "And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” therefore Genesis is once again seen to be in agreeance with what we see in regards to kinds. a house cat and a lion certainly cannot breed and hybridize as you've pionted out. Wild cats of different varieties can though, and domestic cats of different varieties also can...this would imply that they are 2 different kinds...one domestic kind and one wild kind of cat. and thanks for pointing that out...its always good to be corrected when the correction makes the bible account more clear. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
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Meldinoor Member (Idle past 4049 days) Posts: 400 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
Except that wild cats can hybridize with domestic cats. Looks like the genesis account got that one wrong.
Respectfully, -Meldinoor
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Peg Member (Idle past 4170 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
which ones? I searched and the information I found was the house cats cannot be cross bred with lions as Huntard said. Which wild cats did you find that can?
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Meldinoor Member (Idle past 4049 days) Posts: 400 From: Colorado, USA Joined: |
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
I'll leave the "wild cat" thing between you and Meldinoor alone for now. Perhaps I'll comment later.
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Ok... Then what about ostriches and finches, for example. They're both birds, both wild animals, and aren't interfertile. Were there more "wild kinds" of birds as well? Also, I don't think all wild cats can hyverdize with eachother, what's the explanation for that one? Lynxes and jaguars for example, don't think they are interfertile. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
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Dr Jack Member (Idle past 1345 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: |
I refer you to my previous post on this The Kind: Comedy Gold discussing the silliness that equating kind with interbreeding leads to according to Creationism's finest bariminologists
Ha ha ha! So wild and domestic can't interbreed? Dogs and wolves? Domestic Cats and the Wild Cat? Lab rats and wild rats? Domestic goats and mountain goats? Horse and Zebra? The list trots on and on and on. Edited by Mr Jack, : No reason given.
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Peg Member (Idle past 4170 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
thanks for the links melindoor
however, we were specifically refering to the crossbreeding of lions and domestic cats can it be stated with certainty that 'wild cats' were not from domestic cats that have become feral? If these two can cross breed, then perhaps they are the same 'kind'
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Peg Member (Idle past 4170 days) Posts: 2703 From: melbourne, australia Joined: |
It is clearly stated that many bird species were created, not just one wild and one domestic. Genesis 1:21 And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. winged creatures were obviously made in great variety and in different 'kinds' so the fact that we have ostraches and chickens and pelicans and finches etc also shows that genesis is in harmony with what we see.
as was mentioned in the other thread that chromosomes play a role in fertilization success...inbreeding can cause problems for humans and im sure it causes the same problems for animals. Why some can mate and others cant does not prove that new species are being created.
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caffeine Member (Idle past 265 days) Posts: 1800 From: Prague, Czech Republic Joined: |
Cheetahs can crossbreed with neither lions nor domestic cats, however, so there must be more than one kind of wild cat, under this definition.
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Huntard Member (Idle past 1535 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: |
It's also in harmony with what evolution predicts.
That's not the argument I am making though. I'm asking you for a good definition of kind. You said kinds are interfertile. This poses a problem, because many species which you put in one kind are not interfertile. I'm trying to get a workable definition of kind here. I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
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Dr Jack Member (Idle past 1345 days) Posts: 3507 From: Leicester, England Joined: |
Yes, it does. Which is yet another reason why the Ark story is silly. According to you every human on earth traces their entire genetic lineage to a handful of people 4000 years ago, as does the entire variety of life on earth. Every individual "wild cat" comes from just two individuals. Think about it. Not only did this miraculous pair somehow manage astounding evolution producing dozens of radically different species that mysteriously seperated around the globe but also somehow managed to avoid any harmful effects of inbreeding.
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