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Author Topic:   Romney the Bully
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(2)
Message 16 of 264 (661869)
05-10-2012 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-10-2012 6:05 PM


Kid?
I perhaps should have quoted from the beginning of the article.
Mitt Romney returned from a three-week spring break in 1965 to resume his studies as a high school senior at the prestigious Cranbrook School. Back on the handsome campus, studded with Tudor brick buildings and manicured fields, he spotted something he thought did not belong at a school where the boys wore ties and carried briefcases.
He was a senior! At the beginning of the year. That probably made him 17 at a minimum. 17 year olds have been put into prison as adults for crimes.
I am sorry, I just plainly disagree that this is irrelevant to the question of his character.
Furthermore, subsequent to the story you have denials that this happened, then acceptance followed by a half-assed, "if anyone was hurt or offended" apology.
If it isn't such a big deal because what we do as 17 year olds doesn't matter, why the denial?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 6:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 17 of 264 (661870)
05-10-2012 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jazzns
05-10-2012 6:19 PM


Re: Kid?
Because it became a media event.
Sorry but I fear that as a child of 17, even 18, I too did many things I wish I hadn't.
But I am not 17 or 18 now and I learned from those mistakes.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 18 of 264 (661871)
05-10-2012 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-10-2012 6:05 PM


the pathology of bullying?
Hi Jar
The character of of kid is not relevant when looking at the adult.
He was old enough to drive a car and make adult decisions.
The child that tortures cats and dogs is exhibiting behavior that is not relevant when they become a sociopathic murderer?
Formative behavior patterns tend to mold the person.
Sociopath Warning Signs | Healthfully
quote:
Childhood Signs of Sociopath
A sociopath exhibits dysfunctional behavior in regards to others. He frequently violates the law, lies, becomes violent and may abuse alcohol or drugs. According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition (DSM-IV), a person diagnosed as a sociopath, or antisocial personality disorder as it also is called, will have had a diagnosis of conduct disorder before the age of 15.
The profile of an early sociopath always includes some form of violence. This usually is seen as involvement in physical fights and using weapons such as bats, broken bottles and knives. Cruelty to animals is another common feature. A child may harm or even kill an animal and show little to no remorse for his actions. Destruction to property, such as fire setting, often is observed.
Page not found | Sandra Rose
quote:
Are you raising a sociopath?
In a story that made national headlines last week, Anthony Tyrone Terrell Jr., 17, gunned down his mother, a Gwinnett County sheriff’s deputy, and his two younger sisters, one of whom, Jelani, 4, was the daughter of rap star Juvenile.
Anthony Tyrone Terrell Jr. is most likely a sociopath — a bad seed born with no conscience or empathy for others.
Experts say even in a loving home environment, a sociopath can grow up to kill his entire family, then grab a basketball and go shoot hoops with friends as if nothing happened.
Those are the first two google hits on sociopath childhood
Personally I think bullying is sociopathic behavior that cannot just be brushed away because it was long ago.
Also see waking you up - psychopathic bullying | psychopaths who bully | murder by suicide | puzzling people
quote:
... The fact is that psychopaths adore themselves, period. What is being classified as self-loathing is in reality more akin to resentment and jealousy. They do not feel inferior to other people who enjoy the relationships, social life, careers and material goods which the psychopath covets - they just want to take these things away from the victims for the sake of it. A sick game of one-upmanship which can destroy another person’s life for a brief rush of energy in the psychopath.
This resentment is most commonly seen when psychopaths bully other adults, having first developed their craft as children. They begin to realise the value of bullying while still in school - however, they will continue to do this for the rest of their lives as bullying pays off for the psychopath on many levels towards their relationship, social and employment ambitions. ...
I think it says a lot about how Mitt does business ... who admits that he likes to fire people ...
Enjoy.
Edited by RAZD, : added
Edited by RAZD, : qsoute

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 6:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 05-10-2012 6:37 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 23 by Dr Jack, posted 05-10-2012 6:42 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 05-10-2012 6:53 PM RAZD has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(2)
Message 19 of 264 (661872)
05-10-2012 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Dr Jack
05-10-2012 6:19 PM


Re: Upbringing
If it is reflected in what they feel is acceptable behavior? Yes. If by the time Romney was 17 he didn't have a conscious sense that assaulting another human being was wrong, I can absolutely question his moral upbringing in relation to his suitability to be the commander-in-chief of the most powerful nuclear armed military in the world.

This message is a reply to:
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ooh-child
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


(2)
Message 20 of 264 (661873)
05-10-2012 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Jack
05-10-2012 6:18 PM


Typically graduation age is closer to 18 years old - I graduated one month shy of my 18th.
Mormon youths like Romney are expected to go on their missionary trip at around that age. Two years of preaching in another country, on their own; sounds pretty adult to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 05-10-2012 6:18 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Dr Jack, posted 05-10-2012 6:40 PM ooh-child has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 21 of 264 (661876)
05-10-2012 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
05-10-2012 6:25 PM


Re: the pathology of bullying?
Come on now RAZD, please show where Romney tortured cats and dogs.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2012 6:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(1)
Message 22 of 264 (661877)
05-10-2012 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ooh-child
05-10-2012 6:29 PM


A 17 year old is a child, and this was almost 50 years ago. Do you honestly think people can't change in that time?
Would you rather that every presidential hopeful need to guard their every action from the age of what, 15? 16? 17?, in order to be considered for election?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ooh-child, posted 05-10-2012 6:29 PM ooh-child has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(1)
Message 23 of 264 (661879)
05-10-2012 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
05-10-2012 6:25 PM


Re: the pathology of bullying?
Loads of people are involved in bullying. Not least people who are bullied themselves.
You, RAZD, have engaged in behaviour here - on EvCForum - that could be described as bullying. There is no clean divide between bullies and not bullies. It's bad behaviour, but nearly everyone has engaged in it at one time or another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2012 6:25 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 24 of 264 (661881)
05-10-2012 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dr Jack
05-10-2012 6:16 PM


Re: Change is possible
Hi Mr Jack
Do I think he has changed? No, I don't. I think Romney was scum then and scum now.
And his behavior? or does he still bully?
However, I think people can change, and in order for people to be allowed to change we have to assume they can and be willing to let the past rest. I also know that a great many people did shitty things in high school.
They also have to be shown that they need to change.
Apparently he was not even reprimanded or ostracized in any way for his behavior, rather he had a bunch of cohorts that helped, giving him reinforcement and reason to think it was proper behavior.
Forty years, RAZD, it's a very long time to still be paying for one's mistakes.
You are assuming that bully behavior stopped at 18, an age old enough to be drafted ...
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Dr Jack, posted 05-10-2012 6:16 PM Dr Jack has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(1)
Message 25 of 264 (661882)
05-10-2012 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
05-10-2012 6:44 PM


Re: Change is possible
You are assuming that bully behavior stopped at 18, an age old enough to be drafted ...
No, I'm not assuming that. I'm saying that if you want to use the past against him you need to dig up incidents from when he was not a child.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2012 6:44 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(4)
Message 26 of 264 (661883)
05-10-2012 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by RAZD
05-10-2012 6:25 PM


Re: the pathology of bullying?
Personally I think bullying is sociopathic behavior that cannot just be brushed away because it was long ago.
The vast majority of childhood bullies are not, in fact sociopaths. Bullying is not itself a "sociopathic behavior." It's morally reprehensible, but this would be a good time to bring out your "Not all A are B" Venn diagrams.
In fact, the articles quoted seem to focus more on fearmongering about sociopaths than actually describing them accurately. Just because someone's sense of emotional empathy is altered or even missing does not mean one will end up a serial killer. A sociopath is not a "bad seed" doomed to eventually murder his family, contrary to the words of the reporter you quoted. They are more likely to be prone to violence, but typically this is due to the addition of an additional psychological problem like poor impulse control. Most sociopaths are very good at integrating in society.
I think "sociopath" and "psychopath" are too frequently flung around by armchair internet psychiatrists. I think it's getting to the point on some forums (not necessarily this one) that it may become a new Godwin's Law, akin to calling people Nazis.
Romney's behavior, assuming the story is true, was absolutely reprehensible and not at all excused simply because he was likely around 17. And while change can happen, he's certainly given no reason to think that he's changed at all with the exception that he's not likely to express his bigotry and hatred so directly and physically. His behavior appalls but fails to surprise me given his stance on homosexuality and that of the Mormon church.
A story of childhood bullying some 40 years past would not be sufficient to cause me to not vote for a man...but his continued stance against equality for homosexuals is, and this story acts as nothing more than additional confirmation that Romney's homophobia likely runs very, very deep.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by RAZD, posted 05-10-2012 6:25 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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ooh-child
Member (Idle past 344 days)
Posts: 242
Joined: 04-10-2009


Message 27 of 264 (661884)
05-10-2012 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Dr Jack
05-10-2012 6:40 PM


Of course people can change! I'm not the same as I was at 17, although I was living on my own, going to HS, & managing my financial affairs. So I kinda expect Mitt to be around the same level at that age.
But as I said, this story is more of a tell about Mitt's sense of entitlement: 'Sure I can assault a weirdo kid in school - it's just horseplay. I can't have undocumented workers caring for my lawn - I'm running for President, for Pete's sake! It's our turn to move into the White House.' Stuff like that.
And this isn't the only presidential candidate to have his character/judgement questioned by his school attendance & behavior. Madrassas, anyone?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Dr Jack, posted 05-10-2012 6:40 PM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 28 of 264 (661886)
05-10-2012 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Jack
05-10-2012 6:47 PM


Re: Change is possible
No, I'm not assuming that. I'm saying that if you want to use the past against him you need to dig up incidents from when he was not a child.
So what SHOULD be the statute of limitations for when we can form opinions about someone's character? You seem to think 50 years is too long.
What about if he had done this his freshman year of college?
What about his first years at Bain? Are we allowed to consider it then?
Lets also not forget the fact that Romney continues to OPENLY advocate for the treatment of LBGT people as second class citizens.

BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

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Replies to this message:
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Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(5)
Message 29 of 264 (661888)
05-10-2012 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jazzns
05-10-2012 7:01 PM


Re: Change is possible
Lets also not forget the fact that Romney continues to OPENLY advocate for the treatment of LBGT people as second class citizens.
I think this bears far more relevance to Romney's character than a single event some 40 years ago. It's only because his continued open advocacy of anti-gay policies that makes a single 40-year-old event in the same general theme even remotely relevant today.
If Romney today was advocating for equal rights for all and the availability of gay marriage, I think we'd all be looking at his childhood bullying as an example of how far he's come.
Instead, it's an example of how far he hasn't.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it.
- Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of
variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the
outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 05-10-2012 7:01 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 30 of 264 (661897)
05-10-2012 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jazzns
05-10-2012 7:01 PM


Re: Change is possible
Lets also not forget the fact that Romney continues to OPENLY advocate for the treatment of LBGT people as second class citizens.
And THAT is what you should judge him on.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jazzns, posted 05-10-2012 7:01 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Taz, posted 05-10-2012 8:19 PM jar has replied

  
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