God vs. Science

I certainly wouldn't ever ask a student to take anything I said on faith, even assuming one were addle-pated enough to make such a speech. In addition to saying something along the lines of what Rahvin and Jaderis have already said in this thread, I'd suggest to the rest of the class (having already given up on the dolt who asked the question in the first place) that they decide whether to believe what I tell them in my lectures by learning more about the topic than I'm able to impart to them by talking to them a few minutes a day, then use the brains that I am quite sure that they have and make up their own minds.

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Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin FranklinWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I hate to think how many people do take the story literally. How many people read it and think 'Well that really showed the scientists whose right'. This isn't just a mere story, it is a big fat lie because the author knows fine thst many people will believe it.Edited by reiverix, : No reason given.

Can I point out that the views acsribed to our professor (existence of dark, cold etc) are actually ascribed to the Wizards in the Discworld novels of Terry Pratchett? There is also the absence of drunkness (sober), but there is also knurd which is out the other end of sober. Discworld operates on ideas like these, everything humming along nicely and the misconceptions of science which are found in Roundworld (ie us) are actually science in the workings of Discworld.If anyone is interested, "The Science of Discword" is a fascinating book in which all the weird science of Discworld is used to explain basic scientific concepts of Roundworld.Interestingly there are another two books "The Science of Discworld 2 - The Globe" and "The Science of Discworld 3 - Darwin's Watch" (according to hubby who is checking out the titles on his iPod Touch cos I'm hogging the puter). I read these books a while ago because I devour any Pratchett books and I was very impressed, not to say helpless with laughter at the very witty writing.I'm sure that many of you are familiar with Pratchett's work and have read these books. The Globe is a wonderful look at evolution and the meddling of the wizards in trying to help the creatures evolve. Time and again the results of their "intelligent design" are thwarted by natural forces wiping out their pet civilisations and the creation of the three mile long limpet had me prostrate on the floor laughing.The parallels with the OP and "The Science of Discworld" are so many that it's almost frightening. Next scientists will be accused of believing in the particle of magic called the thaum and trying to split it. As for the computer which helps the wizards run the whole thing (Hex) it keeps giving "Out of cheese" errors because that's what powers it's mouse (its a parody of the "AWK baling out at line..." which became so infamous in UNIX machines that there were T-shirts with a parachuting auk on the front).

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There would not, beyond perhaps a "feeling" you may have felt at the time. It's literally identical to a small child who, when asked how he found his lost toy, responds that his invisible friend "helped" him.

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How about moving a large, heavy boat out of a strong eddy? I can guarentee you that no human could have done it. I'll describe the situation, although, as I said earlier, first-hand expirianced cannot be handed down.I was on a rafting trip down the Deschutes River, in Oregon. We had three boats, two rafts and an ore rig. The rafts held all the people, and the ore rig held all the gear.As we were nearing the mouth of the Deschutes, where it dumps into the Columbia River, I chose to guide the ore rig. The reason was because the water was cold and the wind was fast, and nobody wanted to splash the ore rig (because we had the only bucket left). So, I figured the ore rig was the only way to stay dry and warm.Anyway, we entered a patch of small islands, or I guess you could say the river widened and became very shallow. Some deep channels ran between the islands, but it was hard to keep the heavy ore rig inside of them. I would often bump into shorelines and have to get out to push the rig back into the water.The current was especially fast around this one corner. However, it whipped around a small peninsula, forming a large, powerful eddy in which the rig got stuck in. I remember it being pushed by the eddy upstream and shove it onto the bank.So, I got out and pushed it back into the river, only to have the same thing happen again. I pulled as hard as I could on the ores, but the rig continued to get sucked into the eddy.I was on the verge of tears from exhastion when the camp cook, who was also on the rig sitting across from me, said, "Do you want me to pray for you?"The fact that I wasn't strong enough to pray broke me, and I tried to hide my tears as I tried to pull the rig out of the eddy again. I know that I didn't pull harder on the ores. If anything, my breakdown caused me to go weaker. However, the rig was pushed out into the main current, as if the eddy reversed its flow, and I was out.So, explain that by using 'Fairies', 'the flying spaghetti monster', 'my (unexsistant) imaginary friend', or 'chance'.

It's nice of god to get you out of a current while most of the world starve. Come on, this is a joke.

Are you kidding? A boat was moved into a corner and then back out by the current, and because you had an emotional experience due to stress and your coworker happened to have prayed for you, you attribute your survival to the divine?Objects get swept into and back out of river pockets by the current all the time, with no prayer involved. Your lack of effort at the end may have even helped you escape, since working against currents tends not to work at all.The fact is, you can't show in any meaningful way that your survival was due to your god, opposed to fairies, an imaginary friend, or the FSM. Chance and the natural behavior of river currents, however, frequently result in the sort of behavior you witnessed.You attribute your survival to god because you prefer to do so, not out of any observation of objective facts.

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When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

So...Let's say God really did help you in this instance, becasue someone prayed.What about all the much more horrible scenarios in which people have prayed for help, and the bad thing that they were wanting to avoid happened anyway, despite the praying?

It's the typical superstition delusion. If I get my way, "God did it." If I dont get my way, "God said no." Statistical evidence about praying is dismissed with "you can't test God" or "God has a plan that you dont understand."It's exactly like the tree fairy scenario: the fairies are there, they just hide in the tree before you can see them.It's just like imaginary friends: he's there, but you can't see him because he's invisible.They make it unfalsifiable. Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

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When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.

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I certainly wouldn't ever ask a student to take anything I said on faith

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Technically, you are asking them to take them on faith. A student may not always see his teacher's diploma. The student therefore has to have faith that either

the school did a good, thorough search on their teachers

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or

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the teacher actually did pass his/her collage classes.

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Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
Soter

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Jesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

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I certainly wouldn't ever ask a student to take anything I said on faith

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Again, like I said, first-hand expiriances cannot be handed down person-to-person. I know that God did this for me (along with other things). I know that God exists. Whether you believe what He did for me is your choice.Unlike evolutionists, I will not force my opinions on others. I will merely state my evidence, then wait for you to make a decision.P.S. I'd be more than happy to share two other experiances with you if you ask.

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Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
SoterJesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

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Objects get swept into and back out of river pockets by the current all the time, with no prayer involved. Your lack of effort at the end may have even helped you escape, since working against currents tends not to work at all.

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Well, technically I was working with the current the entire time. However, the moment that I'd use the eddy's current to get into the stronger, main current, I'd be sucked right back into the eddy and beached again. So, how would working less change anything, besides make it so I never entered the main current?

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What about all the much more horrible scenarios in which people have prayed for help, and the bad thing that they were wanting to avoid happened anyway, despite the praying?

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I have no idea how God works. I feel that I will only understand why things happen when I get to Heaven. However, I do know that all things work out for the better.For example, in my seventh grade year, my father moved away to Montana (I was living in Vancouver, Washington at the time) and my two best friends stabbed me in the back. I was depressed, and seriously considered suicide. How in the world would that work out for the better?Well, now, I realize that through that expiriance, I learned how to choose good friends that would never stab me in the back. I learned to be more independant of my parents. I learned how God, even though He allows some things to happen, will always carry you through the hard times (just like that footsteps poem) to the other side, where you're a better person.You can't shape metal without heating it up and hitting it.

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Iesous
Christos
H
Theos
H
Uios
SoterJesus Christ, Son of God, Savior.

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It's the typical superstition delusion. If I get my way, "God did it." If I dont get my way, "God said no." Statistical evidence about praying is dismissed with "you can't test God" or "God has a plan that you dont understand."

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If, for Christmas, you recieved a few cups of batter, sour cream, frozen strawberries, a few eggs, strawberry jello, and cottage cheese, you'd probably think Why did I get this? This is the worst Christmas present ever!However, at the end, you recieve a book in which you learn how to make the best strawberry crepes you've ever tasted with those ingrediants, you'd then know that it really was a good present.In life, I know you'll get the short end of the stick, the sour part of the pineapple, the rotten end of the deal. But, in the end, it will all mix together to form a sweet life.

I have an even better story.Christian: god is all powerful and all knowing.
Atheist: can god stomp his own toes?
Christian: well, yes, but I don't think he'd do that.
Atheist: so god can stomp his own toes?Christian begins to cry like a little baby, and scream "stop making fun of my faith." Bullshit. You know damn well that wasn't at all an accurate portrayal of an educated teacher of science just as I know damn well my story above doesn't accurate portray a regular christian. The only reason you made him out to be such a dumbass is so you could demonstrate "as a whole" that people like me are dumbasses.

That was a small component of my reply, and you know it. You still can provide no reason to attribute your survival to the supernatural - you do so because you prefer to do so, not out of any objective evidence or rational reasoning. Again, you could attribute your survival to "fairies pushing the boat," and you would have no more or less evidence than you have for your god.I'm certain you haven't even made the most cursory examination of the facts surrounding your experience in terms of actual current behavior and other objects trapped even in the same place you were - you simply had a close call, were traumatized by it, and decided you would be most comfortable attributing this to some divine protector (that you already believed in, of course) rather than face the fact that you survived only because of natural causes and chance.ABE: If the current really trapped objects as you describe, the same location would have been filled with normal river debris. If there was no debris already trapped, the current must occasionally sweep objects back out into the river.Edited by Rahvin, : No reason given.

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When you know you're going to wake up in three days, dying is not a sacrifice. It's a painful inconvenience.