Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Morality without god
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 691 of 1221 (689298)
01-29-2013 12:39 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by Dogmafood
01-29-2013 8:24 AM


Re: Purpose of Morality
Dogmafood writes:
I don't see why it should be impossible to define morality in absolute terms.
But you can't even do it now. There are no right answers to many moral questions.
How does the robot decide the problems we've spoken about? Ticking time bomb torture, state execution of criminals, short skirts, footballer's pay, abortion, gay marriage.... etc etc etc?
It's exactly the same problem.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Dogmafood, posted 01-29-2013 8:24 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 692 of 1221 (689319)
01-29-2013 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by Dogmafood
01-29-2013 8:24 AM


Possibilities are not certainties
Dogmafood writes:
I think that #2 is just an extension of #1 and that morality at it's most fundamental level is how we behave in order to avoid conflict.
The problem with this is similar to your issue with "there is no such thing as a good thing." You're ascribing motivation to other people.
It is possible to explain any action in a "maybe they did it in order to avoid conflict" mode of thinking. But just because it is possible doesn't mean that's what happened. Example:
I did something minorly wrong at work.
I know my boss is stressed and that he may get a heart attack if he is stressed.
I don't tell my boss about my error.
No one ever finds out, nothing happens about the situation.
Did I not tell my boss in order to avoid conflict?
Or
Did I not tell my boss because I don't want him to have a heart attack?
It is possible for me to have done this in order to avoid conflict.
It is also possible for me to have done this in order to help my boss avoid stress.
If that's not enough, the example can always be modified such that not telling my boss also adds other known conflict or something...
You may be onto something when regarding instinctual behaviour.
But, our intelligence allows us to override our instinctual behaviour.
Is that override occuring?
Only the individual will ever know.
You do not know. Therefore, you cannot ascribe a motivation as a certainty just because it is a possibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Dogmafood, posted 01-29-2013 8:24 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 693 of 1221 (689323)
01-29-2013 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 689 by Dogmafood
01-29-2013 8:24 AM


Re: Purpose of Morality
Sorry, forgot to answer your questions:
Dogmafood writes:
Is there no common thread running through every rational person's definition of moral behaviour?
Haven't heard of one yet... feel free to keep trying, though.
Imagine that we were trying to program a robot to behave morally in any society. Would that be impossible? If we succeeded would we then have the absolute parameters of morality?
I don't think it would be impossible... just not "the only path"... just not "absolute." It would be "the robot's" morality.
Just as your morality is Dogmafood's morality, and mine is Stile's morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 689 by Dogmafood, posted 01-29-2013 8:24 AM Dogmafood has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 694 of 1221 (689674)
02-02-2013 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Tangle
01-27-2013 1:15 PM


Re: Morality is subjective
Tangle writes:
There's no agreement that normative morality logically exists, let alone actually exists.
The whole idea is a pile of mental masterbation. Absolute it certainly ain't.
Meanwhile we do what we can in the society and codes of practices that it has adopted.
I just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents in the middle of your discussion.
I actually agree with you Tangle. Who would have thought it.
I think that the point of morality isn't about what we do or don't do as individuals or societies, and that it is a variable. I would say is that our "codes of practice" that our societies adopt are a result of our collective morality. By extension our individual "code of practice" is a result is a result of our individual morality.
Our morality is essentially our base motivation that drives us. The basis of all of our lives either individually or collectively is somewhere on the line between total selfishness to total selflessness. I don't imagine that either of those extremes are ever reached but we obviously we all fall somewhere in between. Our morality isn't our practice. It is about our hearts that provide the motivation for our practices.
Therefore I think that if God exists, then it is God's wish that our aspirations would be, no matter how imperfectly we achieve it, that we would actually be totally selfless.
If there is no god then I would think that the ideal would be that our aspirations would, no matter how imperfectly we achieve it, be that we would live lives that would be in the best interests of our society.
The question then is how can we tell the difference between the two and it would seem to me that we can't. Therefore in the end, the question about "morality without god" can't really be determined.
I would add though That as our most basic instinct is the instinct for survival, it would seem that there is something beyond our nature that can give us cause to overcome that fundamental instinct for survival, but that is JMHO.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Tangle, posted 01-27-2013 1:15 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 695 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2013 1:57 PM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 695 of 1221 (689677)
02-02-2013 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 694 by GDR
02-02-2013 1:01 PM


Re: Morality is subjective
GDR writes:
I actually agree with you Tangle. Who would have thought it.
Miracles apparently happen....
I would add though That as our most basic instinct is the instinct for survival, it would seem that there is something beyond our nature that can give us cause to overcome that fundamental instinct for survival, but that is JMHO.
Well yes, our personal survival depends on our membership of a tribe - and these days a society. We have therefore evolved social skills to make that possible. Just like chimps and to a different degree, termites.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 694 by GDR, posted 02-02-2013 1:01 PM GDR has not replied

  
GrimSqueaker
Member (Idle past 3688 days)
Posts: 137
From: Ireland
Joined: 03-15-2013


Message 696 of 1221 (693538)
03-17-2013 12:13 PM


Hi I'm new to this forum, this is my first post and I hope I can make it count.
Morality seems very obviously to be an emergent quality of any social creature, we cam see it very clearly in social mammals (dogs etc) all the way down to insects (self sacrificing Brazillian worker ants for example Science | AAAS )
Of course if it is a emergent quality of a society and not something Devine which is set in stone we would expect to see it change and develop with the society and that things which were once considered moral would fall to the way side (for example slavery and genocide being allowed within the bible, and emergent civil rights for different races, sexualitys and genders in our own society)
So that'd be my stance - very curious to hear any reply anyone may have.

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Tangle, posted 03-17-2013 12:55 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 03-17-2013 6:05 PM GrimSqueaker has replied
 Message 700 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:04 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 697 of 1221 (693539)
03-17-2013 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by GrimSqueaker
03-17-2013 12:13 PM


Hi, welcome GrimSqueaker
This thread has been quiet for a while, maybe you can bring it back to life. Sadly I can't help, as I agree with you :-)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-17-2013 12:13 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 698 of 1221 (693553)
03-17-2013 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by GrimSqueaker
03-17-2013 12:13 PM


Sure I'll reply and get myself blasted for it.
Of course if it is a emergent quality of a society and not something Devine which is set in stone we would expect to see it change and develop with the society and that things which were once considered moral would fall to the way side (for example slavery and genocide being allowed within the bible, and emergent civil rights for different races, sexualitys and genders in our own society)
The Bible does not condone slavery, it merely gave laws for treating slaves humanely. Slavery was such a universal institution it couldn't have been confronted until Christ came, and then, although yes some Christians defended it, it was Christians who opposed it on the basis of Christian doctrine.
Also, this notion that "genocide" was "allowed" in the Bible is false. God punished entire tribes of people for their sins. He also punished most of the human race for our sins in the Flood. That is God's Law in operation, God's justice. Genocide on the other hand is simply murder done by tyrannical human beings, and it's certainly not something the human race has transcended by a long shot. I put up the film "innocents Betrayed" on the gun control thread and you can find it at You Tube, all about the genocides of the twentieth century, some continuing into very recent times. It is still going on in some parts of the world if you regard it as genocide for Catholics and Muslims and Hindus to kill Christians.
And of course the idea of rights for "sexualities" is a flat out violation of God's universal Law which is one of the many violations of His law that is bringing the western world under God's judgment. What you may think of as "changing and developing" is in reality merely degeneration.
Cheers.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-17-2013 12:13 PM GrimSqueaker has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 699 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2013 1:12 PM Faith has replied
 Message 701 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:07 PM Faith has replied
 Message 739 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-19-2013 6:15 AM Faith has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 699 of 1221 (693586)
03-18-2013 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
03-17-2013 6:05 PM


The Bible does not condone slavery, it merely gave laws for treating slaves humanely. Slavery was such a universal institution it couldn't have been confronted until Christ came, and then, although yes some Christians defended it, it was Christians who opposed it on the basis of Christian doctrine.
So a simple "Thou Shalt Not Own Slaves" as the 11th Commandment was just too much for your god?
Giving rules for the "humane treatment" of slaves is the same as condoning slavery.
And of course the "humane treatment" was anthing but humane - the rules explicitly allow for beating a slave to death so long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon
"There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers
A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus
"...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 03-17-2013 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 704 by Faith, posted 03-18-2013 3:52 PM Rahvin has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 700 of 1221 (693595)
03-18-2013 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 696 by GrimSqueaker
03-17-2013 12:13 PM


All the way down to insects (self sacrificing Brazillian worker ants for example Science | AAAS )
I don't consider that ant behavior to have anything to do with morality. Morality is about intentional decisions that I'm just not seeing those ants doing. Like, if you programmed a robot to sacrifice itself to save your life then I would consider that amoral as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by GrimSqueaker, posted 03-17-2013 12:13 PM GrimSqueaker has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 702 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2013 3:16 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 701 of 1221 (693596)
03-18-2013 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 698 by Faith
03-17-2013 6:05 PM


The Bible does not condone slavery, it merely gave laws for treating slaves humanely.
That's what "condone" means. Really, look it up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 698 by Faith, posted 03-17-2013 6:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 705 by Faith, posted 03-18-2013 3:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 702 of 1221 (693597)
03-18-2013 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 700 by New Cat's Eye
03-18-2013 3:04 PM


CS writes:
I don't consider that ant behavior to have anything to do with morality. Morality is about intentional decisions that I'm just not seeing those ants doing. Like, if you programmed a robot to sacrifice itself to save your life then I would consider that amoral as well.
Ants, termites, bee etc altruistic behaviour is obviously not moral behaviour but it is an example how evolution can create behaviours that benefit the group at the expense of the individual.
Morality - or our sense of it - is in fact programmed into us in a robotic way in that the feeling of empathy for others is not something we have control over. Unless you're a psycho or socipath, we are affected by the suffering of others.
Of course, given our intellect, we can overide those feelings to greater or lesser degrees, but there's no avoiding the default conditioning which often compels people to do self-sacrificing actions.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:04 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 703 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:29 PM Tangle has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 703 of 1221 (693598)
03-18-2013 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 702 by Tangle
03-18-2013 3:16 PM


CS writes:
I don't consider that ant behavior to have anything to do with morality. Morality is about intentional decisions that I'm just not seeing those ants doing. Like, if you programmed a robot to sacrifice itself to save your life then I would consider that amoral as well.
Ants, termites, bee etc altruistic behaviour is obviously not moral behaviour but it is an example how evolution can create behaviours that benefit the group at the expense of the individual.
Yeah, okay, I guess in that sense it "has something to do with" morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 702 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2013 3:16 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 704 of 1221 (693599)
03-18-2013 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 699 by Rahvin
03-18-2013 1:12 PM


So a simple "Thou Shalt Not Own Slaves" as the 11th Commandment was just too much for your god?
No, too much for the PEOPLE in a world where slavery was taken for granted, people who were already hard enough to govern as the history of Israel demonstrates. It's an example of God's wisdom and restraint. And of course that was obvious but you had to get your snarky remark in anyway.
Giving rules for the "humane treatment" of slaves is the same as condoning slavery.
No, it is merely making the best of an inevitable situation.
And of course the "humane treatment" was anthing but humane - the rules explicitly allow for beating a slave to death so long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.
Quote please?
Slavery, by the way, still exists in the Muslim world.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

He who surrenders the first page of his Bible surrenders all. --John William Burgon, Inspiration and Interpretation, Sermon II.
2Cr 10:4-5 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2013 1:12 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 707 by Tangle, posted 03-18-2013 4:00 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 708 by Rahvin, posted 03-18-2013 4:36 PM Faith has replied
 Message 711 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-18-2013 5:25 PM Faith has replied
 Message 720 by Theodoric, posted 03-18-2013 7:47 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 705 of 1221 (693600)
03-18-2013 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 701 by New Cat's Eye
03-18-2013 3:07 PM


See answer to Rahvin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 701 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:07 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 706 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-18-2013 3:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024