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Author Topic:   prophex and the poor
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 32 (278022)
01-11-2006 8:11 AM


In another thread, Prophex made yet another a claim about how scientists and the work they do are irrelevant to what's "really important" and that they make "large incomes".
He went on to chastize those of us who objected to this statement by saying that "thesee are the complaints of the rich man".
I have a few questions for Prophex:
Since many kinds of science lead directly towards alleviating poverty, suffering, and starvation, how is it that you so blithely dismiss science as a worthless endeavor?
Does your God want the starving and diseased to stay that way, or does he want scientists to help find solutions and cures?
Even though I asked several times, Prophex, for you to explain exactly how much money you think scientists' "large income" is, you still have not answered me. Why is that?
You seem to believe that the only "true" sacrifices are those made by the destitute.
Does that mean, by extension, that no one who is not destitute can be described as deserving of anything they have earned? Or can anyone who is not destitute be described as having worked hard?

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 7:21 PM nator has replied

  
alphablu82
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 32 (278150)
01-11-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
01-11-2006 8:11 AM


God and the suffering
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. God loved the world so much that He became in the flesh as Jesus onto the earth. If God loves us...why would he want us to suffer? Many people suffer on their own accord. Searching for answers without God. He wants to help us. Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb sent to earth to help those. He bled for us. That includes hunger, being poor and disease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 01-11-2006 8:11 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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GoodIntentions 
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 32 (278245)
01-11-2006 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
01-11-2006 8:11 AM


My 2nd brother works, with his 4 year degree, in the insurance bussiness and he makes more than my 1st brother who has a PhD in science.
I'm not familiar with Prophex nor have I read the other thread preceding this one, but I would like to point out a few specific examples of how advances in science have made significant contributions to society.
1) I wouldn't be here at all if science didn't tell my mother's doctor what to do when my mother had complications when I was coming out.
2) Genetic engineering have dramatically increased the production of food for world populations effectively postponing the Malthusian disaster.
3) Prestigious studies are finding more and more ways to effectively treat communicable and noncommunicable diseases that in biblical times would have been a death sentence for the unfortunate souls.
4) We as a society stopped blaming the woman for giving birth to an inferior (female) rather than a son. Heck, even god didn't know that the sperm was the determining factor in deciding whether the child was going to be a son or daughter.
5) I wouldn't be able to see without science, considering how thick my glasses are. My ex-girlfriend wouldn't have been able to see witohut science, considering how thick her glasses were.
6) I don't know about Prophex, but I find it exciting to learn new stuff from Nova almost everyday.
7) For animal lovers, science may one day be able to produce enough meat to replace the meat we get from animal. Currently, with a million dollar you can buy a kilogram of hamburger that didn't come from an animal. What they do is they just take a cell from an animal and keep cloning it until you have a junk of meat.
I was going to write more but I'm temporarily intellectually constipated.

This message is a reply to:
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Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 4 of 32 (278271)
01-11-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
01-11-2006 8:11 AM


responding to you as prophex has not shown himself here as yet...
(I'm hazarding a guess here, although a reasonably well informed guess...)
If we took, say, the highest payed scientist in the world, and compared his income with say, the highest payed evangelist in the world, I think we all know who would have the larger (by orders of magnitude) income.
In many cases scientists work has the result of aleviating (as someone mentioned) third world problems such as disease, poverty... problems which can, be blamed in no small part on the aftermath of religious 'crusades', and the resulting bigotry which causes wars which entices arms dealers to peddle their filthy trade which inturn perpetuates the wars which in turn.... well you get the picture..
I gave up rather quickly trying to extract a response from prophex.. I get the feeling he's a young lad and shoots from the hip on a regular basis, then retreats at the prospect of having to examine his own outbursts.
in fact I gave up trying to extract explanation of opinions from most of the hardline xians on here.
You can't get blood from a turnip. :\

This message is a reply to:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 32 (278287)
01-11-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
01-11-2006 8:11 AM


lol
quote:
He went on to chastize those of us who objected to this statement by saying that "thesee are the complaints of the rich man".
I wouldn't call it chastisement but whatever.
quote:
Since many kinds of science lead directly towards alleviating poverty, suffering, and starvation, how is it that you so blithely dismiss science as a worthless endeavor?
Science is not without good purpose, but I have realized that in the eyes of God, it is not as important as is truth. And this truth resides not inside of the studied physical world.
quote:
Does your God want the starving and diseased to stay that way, or does he want scientists to help find solutions and cures?
Without God, people would know only of death and disease.
quote:
Even though I asked several times, Prophex, for you to explain exactly how much money you think scientists' "large income" is, you still have not answered me. Why is that?
Step back for a moment and acknowledge those who are truly poor.
Your past statements made me say that because they were selfish, ignorant, and childish attempts to make it seem like a life of yours, crash's, and the majority of those in the Scientific community are filled with struggle and sacrifice. This is definately not the case, and in your ignorance of the world's population, you told me that I was the one in ignorance. Try not to think in terms of incomes for this situation.
quote:
You seem to believe that the only "true" sacrifices are those made by the destitute.
"True" is rather subjective here, but I will say that sacrifices in life can be more important, or worthy of being called sacrifices. The discrepancy here lies in what me and you deem sacrifice.
From what I have learned about you, this is a sacrifice.
"Who should drive the car to work today?"
"I guess I should"
"Ok, it's fine, just part of the sacrifices that we (majority) scientists must make each day."
I was thinking more to the effect of life and death struggle with starvation, hunger, or disease. Now I have told you that science does help people, but the way you have discussed sacrifice, is totally wrong. Basically it boils down to two mindsets.
One is focused only on what has become known to them as sacrifice, and hard work.
The other maintains that these terms mean nothing to those who know life differently.
I will also recognize the objection to my blatant generalization there, but I do think that in this situation, there is a graduated majority.

I'm a Dboy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 01-11-2006 8:11 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 01-11-2006 10:11 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 8 by nwr, posted 01-11-2006 10:45 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 14 by nator, posted 01-13-2006 9:16 AM joshua221 has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 6 of 32 (278311)
01-11-2006 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by alphablu82
01-11-2006 12:34 PM


Re: God and the suffering
???
Got anything to contribute that's on topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by alphablu82, posted 01-11-2006 12:34 PM alphablu82 has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2493 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 7 of 32 (278313)
01-11-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
01-11-2006 7:21 PM


Re: lol
So your point is that there are people in the world who are suffering, and that the people here in the United States have it relatively easy.
WTF does that have to do with scientists? Nothing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 7:21 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 10:49 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 8 of 32 (278320)
01-11-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
01-11-2006 7:21 PM


Meaning in life
prophex writes:
Science is not without good purpose, ...
I'm glad you are now admitting that. I didn't like the way you were bad-mouthing science in earlier threads.
Without God, people would know only of death and disease.
Without science, there would be a lot more disease and death.
..., and the majority of those in the Scientific community are filled with struggle and sacrifice.
I'm not claiming that. Sure, I could have found jobs that pay a lot more. But I didn't go into science for the money. I'm paid well enough. I like what I do, and it is a lot more meaningful than some kinds of work.
It's not up to me what you do with your life. Choose wisely, and my best wishes for you.
I'm interested in your current avatar. Is that you and your brother? If it is, then which is which?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 7:21 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 10:48 PM nwr has replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 32 (278323)
01-11-2006 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by nwr
01-11-2006 10:45 PM


Re: Meaning in life
No, thats me and a friend from a program i took over the summer at vassar college. I am the white kid. He is tan. My brother some say looks like me more, he is my twin, so you know the deal.
I agree with your post for the most part.
I changed my avatar, this is me and chris, Im in the blue shirt.
This message has been edited by prophex, 01-11-2006 10:53 PM

I'm a Dboy
I have the blue shirt on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by nwr, posted 01-11-2006 10:45 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 01-11-2006 10:58 PM joshua221 has replied
 Message 12 by Phat, posted 01-11-2006 11:21 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 32 (278324)
01-11-2006 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Nuggin
01-11-2006 10:11 PM


Re: lol
It was about earlier stuff that schraf was saying. I can't like it, because I forgot the thread, sorry.

I'm a Dboy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Nuggin, posted 01-11-2006 10:11 PM Nuggin has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 11 of 32 (278327)
01-11-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
01-11-2006 10:48 PM


Re: Meaning in life
I am the white kid. He is tan.
I'll clarify that. You have the white shirt, and he has the tan shirt.
Some day you will change your avatar, and anybody reading it might be confused as to what you were saying.
Anyway, thanks.
I agree with your post for the most part.
Good to hear.
(AbE: thanks for the new picture)
This message has been edited by nwr, 01-11-2006 11:01 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 10:48 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 32 (278335)
01-11-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by joshua221
01-11-2006 10:48 PM


Re: Meaning in life
You da man!
Twindrix!! Whats up? Meet me in chat YO

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 10:48 PM joshua221 has not replied

  
joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 32 (278555)
01-12-2006 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by nwr
01-11-2006 10:58 PM


Re: Meaning in life
NOOO I had the yellow shirt on.

I'm a Dboy
I have the blue shirt on.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by nwr, posted 01-11-2006 10:58 PM nwr has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 14 of 32 (278624)
01-13-2006 9:16 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
01-11-2006 7:21 PM


answer
Does your God want the starving and diseased to stay that way, or does he want scientists to help find solutions and cures?
quote:
Without God, people would know only of death and disease.
During what periods in history did we experience more death and disease; pre-science or post-science?
Was there more or less belief in the divine pre-science or post- science?
Does that mean, by extension, that no one who is not destitute can be described as deserving of anything they have earned? Or can anyone who is not destitute be described as having worked hard?
Short answers will suffice. Make them direct. Do not avoid the questions or try to sidestep them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 01-11-2006 7:21 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 15 of 32 (278626)
01-13-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by nator
01-13-2006 9:16 AM


Re: answer
During what periods in history did we experience more death and disease; pre-science or post-science?
We didn't experience anything pre-science, because we weren't around.
Ignoring that quibble, I think the answer is still that there is more death and disease now than at pre-scientific times. That's because science has allowed a far larger population than could have been supported in pre-scientific times. With larger population, there will be more death and disease.
Most of the people who have ever died have likely died within the last 100 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nator, posted 01-13-2006 9:16 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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