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Author Topic:   Violent propaganda
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 135 (191366)
03-13-2005 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
03-13-2005 11:21 PM


Re: hm
Wild Ass Guess.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 15 by joshua221, posted 03-13-2005 11:21 PM joshua221 has not replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 135 (191523)
03-14-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
03-13-2005 11:28 PM


Unavoidable: Death and Texans with a sense of humor!
1. wag, wit, card -- (a witty amusing person who makes jokes)
ref: See Dan Carroll
Seriously, though...consider the fact that in the third world, over 50% of the populations are under the age of 27. They want to come up in the world, and they don't want to be Capitalist clones. They were and are young and impressionable, thus the dogma of the elders has fostered terrorist ideology. As exposure to the ways of the West increases, many will abandon hardcore terrorist activities, but ideologies do not change overnite. Look at the far right Christian ideologies that justify a military industrial mode that the U.S. is now under?
Encarta writes:
Social Darwinism transposed Darwin's theory of the survival of the fittest from nature to society. Competition for goods, services, wealth, and power was considered natural and therefore necessary. Those who succeeded were supposed to be the fittest. Social Darwinism was also used to justify distinctions among races and among nations as well; some were deemed superior and others inferior.
Prophex nifty quote on social darwinism had me scramble to understand it.(you must be taking it in school) It makes sense, though. Aging Americans want to keep their social security and eat their cake too. In order to do this, any upstart rogues who want to build wealth on the planet must accomodate the U.S. interests first. Thus, we have a war.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Dan Carroll, posted 03-14-2005 11:07 PM Phat has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 135 (191572)
03-14-2005 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Phat
03-14-2005 6:24 PM


Re: Unavoidable: Death and Texans with a sense of humor!
Reco'nize.

"Creationists make it sound as though a theory is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."
-Isaac Asimov

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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 19 of 135 (191585)
03-14-2005 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by joshua221
03-13-2005 11:19 PM


Re: hm
I'm just implying that the terrorists mean what they say. So far they want Afghanistan, Algeria, Sudan, Nigeria, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Saudi-Arabia, Iraq, Tsjetsnia to turn into strict Islamic nations. So those plans to pay them off with a comfortable life won't work, because their desire is ideological.
Well I don't see any counterargument in this thread, except for the idea that it would create more terrorists. I already covered that possibility in post 1, I think you are likely wrong about it.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by joshua221, posted 03-13-2005 11:19 PM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by crashfrog, posted 03-15-2005 12:32 AM Syamsu has replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 20 of 135 (191596)
03-15-2005 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Syamsu
03-14-2005 11:43 PM


Re: hm
I already covered that possibility in post 1, I think you are likely wrong about it.
For what reason? As you pointed out, when Theo Van Gogh drew verses from the Koran on a woman's naked body, somebody stabbed a manifesto into his chest about 30 times.
I'd say that's a pretty graphic foreshadow of the effects your plan would have on the Muslim world. They wouldn't be demoralized; they'd be galvanized. They wouldn't dispair; they'd be buoyed on righteous outrage. The West would reap a whirlwind of destruction if your plan was implemented.
You're doing to have to do better wth a rebuttal than "I think you're wrong."

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 135 (192002)
03-16-2005 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Syamsu
03-14-2005 11:43 PM


Re: hm
quote:
So those plans to pay them off with a comfortable life won't work, because their desire is ideological.
Basic human rights, an idea made famous from John Locke, implied life, liberty to all humans. You show a strange philosophy about these people who share Islamic values not being human. That was annoying but these basic human rights most of the time surpass the beliefs, and ideas shared by a group of people. (Check the average Christian of America, sry for the generalization but this is what I have observed.)
How can it not work? Humans share a core desire of a happy life. Of course America is destroying this.

Social Darwinism enjoyed widespread popularity in some European circles, particularly among ruling elites during the late 19th and early 20th centuries. During this period the global recession of the 1870s encouraged a view of the world which saw societies or nations in competition with one another for survival in a hostile world. This attitude encouraged increasing militarization and the division of the world into colonial spheres of influence. The interpretation of social Darwinism of the time emphasized competition between species and races rather than cooperation.

This message is a reply to:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 22 of 135 (198846)
04-13-2005 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by crashfrog
03-15-2005 12:32 AM


Re: hm
Gee, are you all too frightened to do it, to pick up the gun and shoot the terrorist?
Well sure there will be counteraction, but on the whole, these protesters would be either terrorists, people not much supportive of free speech, careless people not accepting to take a little collateral damage for the greater good, and a more legitmate complaint of a few devotees who have religious study as their main life's fullfillment.
I was thinking about it a bit, what this propaganda should look like. A good violent propaganda does not contain overt lies, because that is too easy to discount. What would work IMO is something like:
- a wordy cartoon of the prophet having sex with a young child (which is generally believed to have happened AFAIK). On the face of it such a cartoon should look to be innocent, or non-judgemental about what is described in it. Indeed the cartoon should maybe attempt to portray it as a good thing, that the prophet had sex with a young child, because that way it is more insidious. The cartoon should also have a high standard of accuracy and precision, so that it becomes more real, and so that the ethical judgement invited would naturally also be of a high standard (equal to the high standard of precision and accuracy).
The effect should be to have the images and words turn up in the readers imagination or dreams, where it will change into something altogether more menacing to their morale, rather then to shock the readers on sight of the cartoon.
A high ethical judgement on the prophet having sex with a young child is a lot of mental work, and certainly it is very risky work considering a muslim may not defame the prophet in thinking about it. It is sure to lower morale that way.
Anyway, I think the general rules for demoralizing propaganda are to portray something that looks bad, and then to create a lot of doubt about whether it is good or bad, with an extreme attention for accuracy and precision.
Well you could do it with anything, it may also just be fantasy.
For instance;
one day Bin Laden found a small cut on his skin. He dutifully cleaned it, and all what was left was a small thin red line, and Bin Laden went back to his daily routine again. But then the next day the wound reopened again, so he did the same, and put a plaster on it, and forgot about it. blablablablabla........ Eventually the wound turns into a sort of mouth, which sings Islamic prayer. With lots of minute detail and physical accuracy in the story, and of course lots of worry and doubt from Bin Laden whether this is a blessed special gift or an uh... obviously ghastly deformation. So then more mouths appear over his body, but not in places that you can see on TV images of Bin Laden of course, so that gullible people may actually believe Bin Laden has this condition. In the end Bin Laden's body is covered with mouths singing Islamic prayer, mouths which also give of a scent, and Bin Laden appreciates it as a good thing, and some woman finds it attractive.
Of course it may be possible to consider it as a good thing to be covered in mouths. However that takes a lot of work, and if you slip up then on the downside you have one big fearsome image to deal with.
Would this work? Does free speech work to surpress evil ideology? Yes it does. Especially it works with those who are against free speech, to send them into an uncontrollable rage that disables their normal function.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by contracycle, posted 04-13-2005 4:43 AM Syamsu has not replied
 Message 26 by Tusko, posted 04-13-2005 8:21 AM Syamsu has replied

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 135 (198855)
04-13-2005 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Syamsu
04-13-2005 3:39 AM


Re: hm
quote:
Gee, are you all too frightened to do it, to pick up the gun and shoot the terrorist?
No - I think the "terrorists" are in the right, and the West is in the wrong.
quote:
- a wordy cartoon of the prophet having sex with a young child (which is generally believed to have happened AFAIK).
This would be a good example of something that would send the (accurate) message that the west is comprised of a bunch of ignorant intolerant hypocrites.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Tusko, posted 04-13-2005 7:04 AM contracycle has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 24 of 135 (198881)
04-13-2005 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by contracycle
04-13-2005 4:43 AM


Re: hm
You say you think the terrorists are in the right, but surely there's a qualification to that; namely, that you don't share their religious sentiments, or hold the belief that-to-the-letter Sharia or whatever is going to be A Good Thing?
As a side note, did you see those excellent "Power of Nightmares" documentaries? I only caught two of the three but thought they were really illuminating.

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Replies to this message:
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contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 135 (198884)
04-13-2005 7:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Tusko
04-13-2005 7:04 AM


Re: hm
quote:
You say you think the terrorists are in the right, but surely there's a qualification to that; namely, that you don't share their religious sentiments, or hold the belief that-to-the-letter Sharia or whatever is going to be A Good Thing?
Correct - but equally, I think the whole attribution of the cause of the present conflict to religion is mistaken. The third world is conducting an armed resistance to Western imperialism - much as it has done, on and off, for the last 200 years. Certainly, their rhetoric is phrased in religious terms, just like Bush's rhetoric is phrased in democratic terms: both structure their arguments in the light of the prevailing ideology.
quote:
As a side note, did you see those excellent "Power of Nightmares" documentaries? I only caught two of the three but thought they were really illuminating.
Oh yes, very good indeed, although as it happens I also only saw 2 of the 3. Indeed, I think that case is entirely plausible; its one of the reasons I have taken to saying "if they exist" whenever I mention Al Qaida.

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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 26 of 135 (198899)
04-13-2005 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Syamsu
04-13-2005 3:39 AM


Re: hm
My personal belief is that if you disrespect someone's culture and beliefs, then you are going to annoy them. Even if the person is quite moderate in their views, you could anger them significantly. This is because you are attacking not only their beliefs which might not be that strong, but also the beliefs of their family and people they care about, some of whom might take religion much more seriously. Does that sound reasonable?
I was wondering: did you get this idea after hearing about the attempts to demoralise other civilian populations by airdrops of leaflets in 20th century wars?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 27 of 135 (198917)
04-13-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Tusko
04-13-2005 8:21 AM


Re: hm
Well, it's an ugly thing violent propaganda, but it may be an effective weapon. It is just very mean, in a way, to intentionally hurt this way. That would be a good argument against it, I guess.
Again, I think you should simply consider how you would react to such propaganda, if you were the victim, for instance as a Christian, I don't know, and it was anti-christian fundamentalist violent propaganda. It seems all the people here that don't like it are saying, that they would not be angry, if they were collateral damage, but others would be angry. So far noone here would be angry, or would they?
I did not come up with it after reading about the leaflets. Just as something someone like me can contribute in the effort against terrorism. I would not spread this kind of violent propaganda as widely as leaflets.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 28 of 135 (198937)
04-13-2005 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by joshua221
03-13-2005 11:21 PM


Re: hm
Wag the dog I would assume.
The military does use propoganda. For instance, when we were fighting Taliban in Afghanistan (about 6 months ago) we were having trouble flushing them out of the mountains. So we got an Arabic speaking individual on a loudspeaker to shout, "Take your Burkhas(sp?) off and fight like men!" Over a loud speaker during the next patrol.
It had the desired effect.
I don't think "calling them names" is going to help. It would add to the pool of suicide bomber volunteers.
I like the "If you do (X) we are going to kick your ass" approach. Then we simply stick with it. They may not like us (not that they did before) but they will have a pretty good idea what our reaction will be, and hopefull that reaction is not to simply call them names.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 3:02 PM Tal has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 29 of 135 (198987)
04-13-2005 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Tal
04-13-2005 10:59 AM


Re: hm
I like the "If you do (X) we are going to kick your ass" approach. Then we simply stick with it.
Of course the problem is we really do have to stick with it.
Like we say "show you don't have any weapons, or we'll kick your ass", then when they show us they don't have weapons we don't then say "well that means your hiding them" and kick their ass anyway.
I see you have reappeared at EvC, have the WMDs you promised surfaced yet?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Tal, posted 04-13-2005 10:59 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Tal, posted 04-13-2005 3:22 PM Silent H has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5677 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 30 of 135 (198991)
04-13-2005 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
04-13-2005 3:02 PM


Re: hm
quote:
Sunday, March 13, 2005 10:17 a.m. EST
N.Y. Times: Iraq Had WMD 'Stockpiles' in 2003
No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/13/101911.shtml
And again, that was only 1 reason we went to war against Saddam.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 3:02 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Silent H, posted 04-13-2005 5:42 PM Tal has not replied

  
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