Is Christianity so weak that it has to be validated?

I think it does, many don't. Don't start debates about something that has been debated to death in a recent topic please.------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good."As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

I don't feel that there are enough threads currently discussing the oh-so-topical subject of two-thousand-year-old homophobic traditions, so I've started one called "Gay Sex: How Can Something That Feels So Right Be an Abomination Before the Eyes of the Lord?"It will probably be closed before I submit this, though, so feel free to carry on.------------------
En la tierra de ciegos, el tuerto es el Rey.

once again you don't answer my question.. so I will ask another Question
Why do you have faith in it?

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once again you don't answer my question.. so I will ask another Question
Why do you have faith in it?

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Simple really. I have faith in "it" (Bible I am assuming) because I believe what "it" says. Can't get any simpler, there's your answer.Many of you don't believe the Bible because of the "stories" or "myths", you say that the Creation, the miracles, the Flood, etc, are. Well let's put all that aside, you get instructions or teachings. All of these teachings have a positive message of love. At least recognize the part of the Bible that shows instructions and teachings (if you don't believe the "stories" of the bible) of love and how to treat others. It when examined shows how to live a better life. Many "OEC's" are like this. They follow all but the "stories" or "unbelievable" happenings. This (crashfrog) is what you would call your model Christian. But they are missing the most important part of the teachings by believing the OEC view, the part about faith. Almost no faith is ever displayed if you only pick and choose parts that you think could have occured out of the Bible. The most faith displayed to other people is probably when they decide to trust a minute part of the Bible.------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

Hi Let us have a little look at how we should treat other according to the Bible:Exodus 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well. So if we don't get our own way, we can follow God's example and murder children until we finally get what we want.Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property. This is so gross that it is beyond my comprehension, God tells us that we can beat a servant to a pulp as long as he doesn't die, oh and it is ok for us to have other people as part of our property. It is disgusting and has no place in a humane soceity.Deuteronomy 3:6 We completely them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and children. Joshua 6:21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys. Joshua, God's champion, spreads more of God's love.Judges 11:29-39 Judges 11
29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD 's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD . Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. This must have been where I went wrong when I was a Christian, instead of praying to the Lord to ask him to stop my mother's suffering I should have included a vow to kill a child as a sacrifice, ah well.2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths. Well God loves bald men, children though he apparently hates, no point in grounding the kids for a week when you can send a pair of bears to murder them.This is tedious, the Bible is not the goody goody book that some people think it is. It condones all kinds of atrocities but as long as God says it is fine then somepeople are very happy with that.Brian.

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Let us have a little look at how we should treat other according to the Bible:

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Exodus 12:29 At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn of the prisoner, who was in the dungeon, and the firstborn of all the livestock as well.

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So if we don't get our own way, we can follow God's example and murder children until we finally get what we want.

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No backround information as to why this occured. I am positive that the Lord punishes those who deserve it, (by his jugdement.) The firstborns would be handled by God. (again his judgement, we no nothing of it)

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Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

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This is so gross that it is beyond my comprehension, God tells us that we can beat a servant to a pulp as long as he doesn't die, oh and it is ok for us to have other people as part of our property. It is disgusting and has no place in a humane soceity.

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Slaves were sometimes prisoners of war. I am not sure as to who slaves were to the masters. God sometimes appointed slaves (this as punishment to the appointed):Genesis 9:25 - he said, "Cursed be Canaan; a slave of slaves shall he be to his brothers."
Moses declared God's rulings after this and one of his rulings was to defy slavery. (Looking for verse.) Again, I know nothing of God's judgement. God made that law thousands of years ago, yet the humane society we live in only ridded of it a couple hundred years ago.

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Deuteronomy 3:6 We completely them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and children.

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Joshua 6:21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

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Joshua, God's champion, spreads more of God's love.

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No backround information to why these killings were done given. You are only seeing the consequences not the causes.

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This is tedious, the Bible is not the goody goody book that some people think it is. It condones all kinds of atrocities but as long as God says it is fine then somepeople are very happy with that.

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I disagree highly.

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2 Kings 2:23-24 From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" 24 He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the LORD . Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

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It's not of hating youths, its not about hating, it's (although seemingly harsh) jugdement, Elisha was being mocked, the Lord saw this and his wrath was shown quite fiercely. You don't know the backround of these "youths" you don't know how old the "youths" were, you cannot take this and judge it, there isn't enough information. Also, Elisha was a devout follower of God.

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Deuteronomy 3:6 We completely them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city-men, women and children.

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Joshua 6:21 They devoted the city to the LORD and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it-men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

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Joshua, God's champion, spreads more of God's love.

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Again you don't show any backround information (what the city did.)

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Judges 11:29-39 Judges 11
29 Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah. He crossed Gilead and Manasseh, passed through Mizpah of Gilead, and from there he advanced against the Ammonites. 30 And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD : "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, 31 whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the LORD 's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering."
32 Then Jephthah went over to fight the Ammonites, and the LORD gave them into his hands. 33 He devastated twenty towns from Aroer to the vicinity of Minnith, as far as Abel Keramim. Thus Israel subdued Ammon.
34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 35 When he saw her, he tore his clothes and cried, "Oh! My daughter! You have made me miserable and wretched, because I have made a vow to the LORD that I cannot break."
36 "My father," she replied, "you have given your word to the LORD . Do to me just as you promised, now that the LORD has avenged you of your enemies, the Ammonites. 37 But grant me this one request," she said. "Give me two months to roam the hills and weep with my friends, because I will never marry."
38 "You may go," he said. And he let her go for two months. She and the girls went into the hills and wept because she would never marry. 39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

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Jephthah gave the LORD his word. Unfortunately his daughter came out of his house. This shows how faithful and loyal true Christians are. The daughter wasn't afraid of dying, she knew she had a place in Heaven. To the "saved" Death is not frightening because the "saved" know that they will end up in a place of eternal bliss forever.------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

http://www.gospelcom.net/...For Slavery in a Christian Perspective.------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-24-2003]

ummm there are many stories that teach messages........ some teach better and more clearly then your bible. you still haven't given me an answer. Please do so

Hi PEThanks for reinforcing my point that the Bible 'condones all kinds of atrocities but as long as God says it is fine then somepeople are very happy with that.Let us look at your reply. Ok, the Israelites were seemingly getting too numerous so the unnamed Pharoah had them enslaved. YWHW was peeved, he sent Moses to tell the Pharoah to 'let my people go', Pharoah refuses, and this leads to YWHW sending a series of plagues against Egypt. The final plague, the one described in the quote, finally convinces the Pharoah to let the Israelites go.Look a bit deeper into this 'judgement'. Imagine a farmer on the nile delta who has no idea what has been going on in the capital with Pharoah and Moses.This farmer has his firstborn child taken away from him through no fault of his own, where is the justice in that? Genesis 9:25 then is another horrific teaching/message in the Bible. Knowing nothing of God's judgement doen't makethese verses any less repulsive to any decent human being.I am so glad that our humane society finally saw how disgusting some of the laws 'written' by YWHW are and finally put an end to slavery. The causes were that these people were going about their daily business and were slaughtered becasue they hapopened to live in the land promised to Abraham and his descendants! That is it in a nutshell, no matter how you dress it up, but feel free to try and justify it. Of course you do, atrocites are fine as long as YWHW condones it. Had any other faith's God commanded a tiny amount of YWHW's atrocities you would be horrified. It really doesn't matter how old they are, youngsters will be youngsters, calling someone 'baldy' or shouting an insult to an adult is something that a lot of young people do, I dont condoen it and they should quite rightly be punished. But i think the difference between taking away their games-console for a week and grounding them is preferable to having them rent limb from limb by a couple of bears.Don't you see what you are doing? Deep down you know that these things are repulsive to any decent human being, but becuase they are in the Bible your personal morality is put on hold and these atrocities are justified. It doesn't matter how faithful people are it doesn't hide the fact that YWHW is happy to recieve a human sacrifice. It promotes the view that you have more chance of your prayers being answered if you throw in the promise to kill a person as a sacrifice.I cannot believe this statement This shows how faithful and loyal true Christians are. Jephthah and his daughter were Jews, there were no Christians around for at least another thousand years! And your idea of 'saved' is about a thousand years out of date as well.These are only a few of the atrocities that God promotes in the Bible, it is literally riddled with crimes against humanity, crimes that today we as humans have over-ruled. Of course you would call these crimes 'God's Laws' and that as God he can treat his creation any way he chooses, but this just proves that man's morality is far superior to the God of the Bible's.Brian.

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Simple really. I have faith in "it" (Bible I am assuming) because I believe what "it" says. Can't get any simpler, there's your answer.

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But why do you "believe in what it says?"If your answer is "because I have faith in it", then that is circular reasoning:"I have faith in the Bible because I have faith in the Bible."

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Many of you don't believe the Bible because of the "stories" or "myths", you say that the Creation, the miracles, the Flood, etc, are. Well let's put all that aside, you get instructions or teachings. All of these teachings have a positive message of love.

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Some of the teachings have a positive message of love.Other teachings in the Bible have a negative message of fear, punishment, vengeance, or threats.That's simply true in any reading of the Bible.

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At least recognize the part of the Bible that shows instructions and teachings (if you don't believe the "stories" of the bible) of love and how to treat others. It when examined shows how to live a better life.

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I agree that there is useful information and philosophy for how to treat other people in the Bible.However, similar ideas can be found in many religions and philosophies, including humanist, non-religious philosophies.So, since Christianity is not the only religion or philosophy in which we find such guidence, do you agree that Christianity is one of many valid religions or philosophies?

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Many "OEC's" are like this. They follow all but the "stories" or "unbelievable" happenings. This (crashfrog) is what you would call your model Christian. But they are missing the most important part of the teachings by believing the OEC view, the part about faith. Almost no faith is ever displayed if you only pick and choose parts that you think could have occured out of the Bible.

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Excuse me?The acceptance that Jesus was the Son of God, came to Earth, and died for our sins so that we may enjoy eternal salvation in heaven is "displaying almost no faith" according to you?Please explain.

Brian,The Bible was written in different times then today, Slavery if you read that link was a way of life and an alternative to killing the POW's.Also, I cannot judge any part of what God did. I don't know his motives, how his judgement works, or what it was like back then.Everything you are saying would have to be understood more deeply, by an interpretation by God himself. I just don't know, no human does.EX.

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This farmer has his firstborn child taken away from him through no fault of his own, where is the justice in that?"

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Again, There is no way I could even begin to answer you with my opinion.

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...feel free to try and justify it.

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I cannot stress it enough, I just can't. It isn't my doing. I can't judge what I know next to nothing about.

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Of course you do, atrocites are fine as long as YWHW condones it. Had any other faith's God commanded a tiny amount of YWHW's atrocities you would be horrified.

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Depends on what you think an atrocite is doesn't it?

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Don't you see what you are doing? Deep down you know that these things are repulsive to any decent human being, but becuase they are in the Bible your personal morality is put on hold and these atrocities are justified.

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Two things:What is your thought on what a decent human being is?ANDYour wrong, avoid assuming the motives of my thoughts. These "things" that occured in the Bible cannot be justified or judged by me or any human for that matter.

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It doesn't matter how faithful people are it doesn't hide the fact that YWHW is happy to recieve a human sacrifice. It promotes the view that you have more chance of your prayers being answered if you throw in the promise to kill a person as a sacrifice.

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First of all, he had no knowing that his daughter would walk out of the house. Secondly, the only view it promotes is a Godly one. It shows the man's bond with God, he made the promise and he kept to his word.

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I cannot believe this statement This shows how faithful and loyal true Christians are.

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Jephthah and his daughter were Jews, there were no Christians around for at least another thousand years! And your idea of 'saved' is about a thousand years out of date as well.

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These are only a few of the atrocities that God promotes in the Bible, it is literally riddled with crimes against humanity, crimes that today we as humans have over-ruled. Of course you would call these crimes 'God's Laws' and that as God he can treat his creation any way he chooses, but this just proves that man's morality is far superior to the God of the Bible's.

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Christians were around, they weren't called Christians, they were Jews inspired by Christ. Now Jews today are different in their beliefs. My idea of saved was around, (not in the sense of Christ when he died on the cross.) They had prophets. The people knew of Jesus. Jesus was there when the world was created. "...In OUR likeness."Your points don't prove anything.I said I didn't want a debate on this topic...------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

I believe in what the Bible says, because it's the word of God.
You ask why you think it's the word of God? Because I was touched by the Holy Spirit a long time ago.
No circular resoning.------------------
Psalm 14:1
The Fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.

Hi,It is ok that you do not want to debate this but could I finish with just two points? This is untrue and anti-biblical as well. How can there have been Christians around a thousand years and probably more before Jesus was born. The book of Judges covers events before the monarchy of ancient Israel. Samuel was the last judge so it was even before Saul, David or Solomon, so you need to revise this.And finally, More accurately, my points don't prove anything to you, however your replies scream the validity of my points from the rooftops!Thanks for the chat on this subject, I appreciate your time and effort.Take care.Brian.

how where you touched by the Holy spirit? I would really like to know. how come I haven't? and you can't say Because you had faith Because thats the reason you have faith. Please explain this to me

Don't ask me, proph, I'm just the messenger.But if you want my opinion: I'd say that a higher authority than your God is trying to get your attention. And the menacing tone suggests (at least to me) that you'd do well to listen to these guys, for they seem to mean business.It surprises me really that you are not down on your knees already. After all, you display unquestioning faith in God, though the only 'evidence' you have of him is a written account and a personal (now seemingly misguided) feeling. Now, here's another written message of on high (though a rather terse one, I must admit) and you say you don't understand. Really, proph, I would have expected a bit more mental agility from someone who can turn the account of a father killing his own daughter, just to keep a promise, into an example of commendable loyal conduct.What don't you understand? They call themselves HEELAL and they say they are infinite. They say they created 'the one call God', thereby indicating they are a tad mightier than said God. And they call on you. It's really very straightforward: they're saying it's time to change allegiance. You need me, an atheist, to explain that to you?You don't believe it, you say? It's all nonsense? But... it's written?! How can you deny the truth of it? Ok, it wasn't written over two thousand years ago, it appeared only in the past few days, but does that make it any less trustworthy? Tell me: how do you decide what to believe and what not?In the mean time, you might try a little prayer to these HEELAL guys. After all, you never know...Cheers.