The continuation of art styles through a speculated flood

I honestly never heard of this connection and I have not had the time to review the links in Paulk's post. This question hinges on the first question so I must answer the same - I don't know.Paulk creates a post which seems to support a connection, albeit the content is deliberately skeletal of any position. The post is actually a Forum Rule Violation in that it contains bare links accompanied by no explanations or argument.

RAZD:Would you please be considerate and change your obnoxious avatar ?Your argument concerning the existence of worldwide Flood accounts is senseless.You just assert that the differing facts means the Flood never happened.Then to assert that the accounts testify to a local flood defies common sense and is only offered because worldwide accounts evidence the Flood.Your position says the Genesis Flood never happened but somehow every major worldwide civilization decided to incorporate a local deluge story into their culture. What are the chances of this ?Objective persons easily deduce the worldwide accounts have a origin, that ONE of the accounts is responsible for the official facts.The existence of the worldwide accounts proves the Bible correct: A deluge happened. You failed to apply the above argument.I am waiting.....WT

You post evidence of a catastrophe then contrary to your evidence you brand it a myth. Where is the integrity in this ? Evolutionists sure argue against anything catastrophic. IOW, they were dumb ass neanderthals and you are going to tell us what they should have said.IOW, they didn't mean what they said, and you evos somehow "know" this.All you are doing is shouting down the evidence with rhetoric/misuse of logic.

Sorry, post deleted. It's not really on-topic. I'm not going to respond to WT if he persists in going off-topic.This message has been edited by crashfrog, 09-07-2004 10:16 PM

As to my avatar there is a solution you can use. If you use Int.Explorer you will need to turn off active-X, if you use netscape they have a more elegant solution -- you can set all animations to cycle once. There is also some "freeware" available now that will disable active-X routines and the like without the problems that Int.Exp. makes for itself.In netscape, go to {edit button} pick {preferences ... } from the menu and then select {privacy & security} in the left window to expand it, then select {images} under it and at the bottom you can select between the 3 options for animations: the middle one is cycle once.

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What I asserted was that all those different facts mean that they must have been based on different (distant) past experiences - a flood in South America gives a mesopotamian myth a basis different from the others.And I also did not say that there was no basis for a genesis flood, just that it couldn't have been the same basis because of the differences, and that pretty well rules out the possibility that it was world wide. Follow the logic: if it was world wide and all the descriptions are true then there were lots of survivors other than those in a large wooden boat filled with ill-tempered animals - and that is just as much a problem for the biblical scenario as the lack of a world-wide flood.Every major worldwide civilization started with agriculture, which was necessarily built on the fertile flood plains. What is the probability that they would all experience a flood sooner or later? 100%. That's what floodplains do: flood. Regularly. Faulty logic again: There is no need for any one of them to be factually true even though there is a high probability that there was a different actual event that formed the basis of each myth. And if I have to choose, I would choose the Norse flood of blood (they have no other flood ...). Prove me wrong.There is also plentiful evidence of flooding in the geological record, but not of a single time when all places were flooded at once. This would also support a "many different flood" basis for all the myths.By excluding the evidence in your mind that these are different floods you are making the logical fallacy mentioned.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

The survivors? lolThen why are the stories so diferent? So many people, so little time.

Myth - A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.So even describing something that actually happened can be a myth. You seem to think that a myth must be totally based on imagination. That is simply not the definition of a myth. Actually it seems to me that many people so far in this thread have argued that floods have happpen. Isn't pretty much any flood event a catastrophy? Lets take a look back shall we: I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that catastrophy does not happen. If you need one more then consider myself. Catastrophy is an important aspect of the study of classical geology. No not neanderthals. Most definitly Homo Sapians. The first of our species to develop agriculture and bind themselves to one place such that an event like a flood would be disasterous. What would a flood be to a nomad? All they would have to do is pick up and walk the opposite direction. One mile per day is nothing for a civilization that isn't required to be stationary. For those whos life depends on structures, storage, crops, etc, a flood would be an awful thing to endure.Also, we are not going to tell them what the should have said. They said what they did and wrote it down when writing became practical. All we can do is interpret what they left behind. Well, we could read what they write and decide that there really was ogres and such but since we do live in an age where we are a little less gullible then that we can use our knowledge that we have gained throughout history to try and decipher what real life elements are represented by the myth. You make it seem like historians are making up stories for their own convienence. You also assume all historians are "evos". Do you like living in a polarized world? Please show me how I have shouted down the evidence with rhetoric and misuse of logic. I do not ever intend to be illogical. In fact I am certainly not the one making absolute statements like "evos somehow 'know'" and "evos argue against anything catastrophic" which are certainly not true.I hope that your reply can point out any logical fallacies that I am making in my statements. I look forward to hearning from you.God Bless,

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-Nasser

What IS known is that in the areas with the various flood myths, the evidence for major floods shows differnet time periods.Since civilizations tend to gather around rivers, as a source of water and transportation, it would make sense they would be subject to floods.As for the art, what is the methods used to date the art anyway? Are they able to date the actual carving on the stone, based on the building
on the surface?? Or do they date other artifacts found with the statues?I think that the art is just one piece of the information in the culture. It shows that the CULTURE, which leaves more than just statues behind, showed no physical disruption during that time period.
The style of art is just one aspect of the continuity of culture for that island. A 'world wide flood' is quite contrary to the evidence if the 'world wide flood' is alledged to have happened during that time period.This message has been edited by ramoss, 09-08-2004 07:57 AM

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Then why are the stories so diferent? So many people, so little time.

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This is like cat and mouse, I wouldn't call thousands of years little time, also Have you ever played the game "telephone"?This message has been edited by prophex, 09-08-2004 05:57 PM

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

quote:

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Why would a bunch of Jews start copying a pagan artistic form they had never encountered before such that there is no evidence of any break in the timeline and no outside influence in the output?

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I play guitar and often find myself playing songs that I later find are not actually mine. If this could be related the the jewish people's artistry maybe one could think that they without knowing had made something that was not their own in reality.Using this logic, it doesn't seem like sturdy evidence.

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"Wake up, O sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you."Ephesians 5:14

I responded to your post.If you don't want to debate then just quit and refrain from blaming me.

None of these have anything to do with the topic.To try to get back towards the topic, how do you explain art styles like those of the Jomon or those of the Cyclades? If everyone died except the folk on the ark, first they would have to reproduce. I assume it took at least 9 month just like today. In addition they would have to increase in number and travel to Japan, in the case of Jomon.Once these folk got to Japan, many generations after the flood, why would they pick up an art stle that would have been dead for all those generations? Why do we not see any break in the style, any change, any influence from their experience of the flood?Why is this pattern repeated all over the world, in the Greek Isles, Japan, China, India, Egypt?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I bugged my YEC friend about something of this nature. Her response was that our ability to date such things must be flawed. Therefore the people who created that art are either pre or post flood and our understanding of when they lived is wrong. I don't really know how to respond to this line of reasoning especially in front of the much more damning evidence of things like the Egyptian Empire. My response to her was that even if we are wrong about the date ranges of a certain civilization such as Egypt we certainly cannot be wrong enough, in the younger direction in particular, to make Ancient Egypt fit post flood.This also seems true for the Cycladic art. Given a length of 1200 years one would have to be wrong by quite a large margin to place it either pre or post flood.Post flood adoption of pre flood culture is just plain silly. For starters, why weren't all these cultural artifacts buried in the massive cataclysm that supposidly created the geologic column? Does stone art float? Even if post flood decendants of Noah wanted to continued other cultural practices how would they have found so many good examples of pre flood culture in the exact same spot right after the worst disaster in world history powerfull enough to rip the continents apart? Why is it when I think of sentences in my head that they run on for almost a whole paragraph?These and other unanswerable questions coming soon to a forum near you.

We're talking about stone art, though. Littering the ground amongst the debris of a civilization wiped out by your flood.You're trying to argue that they saw all this art on the ground, copied it, and then forgot that they had seen it all over the ground?If you think that's a serious rebuttal, you simply don't understand the argument.

The Jomon material is mainly pottery styles - but it's still distinctive and still persists for 10,000 years or more.