History's Greatest Holocaust Via Atheistic Ideology

While there may be a subset of individuals in the set of all atheists that share this belief, it is not what defines the set of atheists as a whole. I know that I personally do not hold this belief, but instead simply lack belief in the existence of any God or gods. The distinction is the difference between "I don't believe X" and "I believe not-X." The former accurately characterizes all atheists whereas the latter only characterizes some. Agreed. It's textbook special pleading. Right on the money there, mi amigo. I think it would be more accurate to say that some atheists have a common ideology as you've described, but the sample of atheists he's attacking is unrepresentative of the whole. Anyway and furthermore, the behavior of a group's adherents is irrelevant to the basic truth or falsity of the belief(s) that might unite them.[This message has been edited by ::, 01-19-2004]

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It would be interesting if someone could locate in Stalin's writings where he said "There is no God, therefore....", or Hitler saying "Since there is no God...." or Pol Pot saying "We will implement the following policies, since there is no God:...."

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Hitler somewhat religious? A self-proclaimed Christian of sorts? I swear I heard in a number of his speeches refer to "God" here and there.

The Nazis, especially Himmler, seemed to be trying to develop a quasi-religious kind-of-pagan mystical component to their ideology; it certainly wasn't very Christian, although they may have made reference to a God. I don't know if Hitler himself actually bought into it.And, yes, Hitler himself did make references to God in his speech, but whether he actually believed in God, he was just using it a rhetorical device, or a cynical attempt to manipulate the Christians, I don't know.

Consider this bit of history 91850-1920) as an analogy, something to learn from lest we repeat it:Disease, sickness is evil.Germs (sensu latu) contribute to disease and sickness.Handwashing and anti-sepsis by those who believe in germs reduces disease and sickness.The ideology that says, "I don't believe in germs, don't believe they exist." leads to the practise of living without anti-sepsis and hand-washing.Such people, especially when working in hospitals, cause other people to die, by inadvertantly spreading germs.This leads to a correlation between death rates in hospitals, and the belief in the existence of germs.This correlation may therefore be taken as supporting the idea that germs really exist, and ought to be looked for carefully, and studied. (Need a micro-biology program)Now, we have here,Genocide and mass murders are evil.Demons (if they exist) contribute to genocide and mass murders.Prayers, by those who believe in Jehovah, (deliver us from the evil one) and that demons exist, reduce the efficacy of demons to do their dirty deeds.The ideology that says, "I don't believe Jehovah or demons exist." leads to the behavior of not using faith-filled prayer.Such people, working in places of authority, cause other people to die, by inadvertantly spreading the influence of demons.This leads to a correlation between mass murders and the lack of prayer or spirituality in a nation.This correlation, when shown to exist, thus lends support to the idea that God and demons are a part of this world, and ought to be studied.At present, there are many remarkable studies showing that prayers have an effect on health. Quite a few more than there were studies showing that germs were involved in disease 100 years ago, 50 years after the first was published by Semmelweis. 100 years ago, most scientists rejected the claim, and didn't use or promote anti-sepsis.
Just as today, most scientists claim spiritual beings that are influenced by prayer don't exist. Despite correlations showing that some prayerful nations have more peaceful histories than nations that reject prayer. (Look at nations with flags with crosses on them, and taxes dedicated to paying people who pray). Remember that some antiseptics are better than others.Nothing proved, but you know, I think about the doctors who ignored Semmelweis, and wouldn't wash their hands between autopsies and deliveries and surgeries. Wouldn't just wash their hands!! Despicable.Read the recent article in Discover magazine, for an update on the diligence of our great scientific minds regarding anti-sepsis. Feb issue, page 78.Stephen

Published where?

This is not a scientific statement. Evil is a subjective concept with no tangible objective reality. There is exceptionally strong evidence of germs, so anyone who says this is ignoring hard evidence. Unlike germs, there is a complete lack of evidence for demons and for any actions by demons. Anyone who rejects the existence of demons is not ignoring hard evidence. Thus, your analogy fails. The evidence for the health advantages of hand washing was empirical. Over time a link was established between germs and disease, and between hand-washing and removal of germs, so that today we have an unbroken trail of evidence and established mechanisms behind our techniques for infection prevention.In sum, the evidence for germs and for germs as the cause of disease is well established. There is no analogous evidence for demons or for demons as the cause of misfortune.--Percy

Percy,re evidence for demons.We have way more evidence today for demons than we had for germs in relation to disease 100 years ago. Actually, the Bible Codes studies have such low p values that they place the surface text where demons are described beyond reasonable doubt. Ditto with Theomatics. Ivan Panin's studies are a bit primitive in statistical analysis, but are pretty amazing. Then there is Harold Koenig's work at Duke. All of which puts the anectdotal reports on a much more credible level. Why believe that all those people are making all that stuff up? Unless, as with UFO's, they are being taken in by demons.Don't think you're learning all you can from history!Stephen

Corgyps,Larry Dossey, Healing Hands, has a pretty good review of the classical stuff. Harold Koenig's ongoing research at Duke will prove interesting. A recent study, most interesting, can be gotten on Google, on fertility and prayer. I'll see if I can find it and post it later.Stephen

cory,Go here,Page Not Found | Contemporary OB/GYN for a report on the fertility study. The others are so famous, you'll have no trouble. Prayer experiments.

What is your evidence for demons?--Percy

Are there plans for reproduction of this study? It looks like n is big enough but I'm not a statastician. It is interesting.added by edit:
If find this from Nov, 2001

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Those in the "prayed for" group had fewer complications than any of the patients, including those receiving other complementary therapies, he says. "Although it's not statistical proof, it's not certainty, it is suggestive -- to the point that we've already begun a phase II trial."

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He has already enrolled more than 300 people in a phase II study.

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from : http://lkm.fri.uni-lj.si/xaigor/slo/znanclanki/prayer.htmBut now I can't find the results of that phase II study. That makes me worry about publication bias. Do you have something?

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Common sense isn't[This message has been edited by NosyNed, 01-19-2004]

This is a blatant lie. You know the OT, so why don't you provide biblical references that negate it's justification for destroying the people of Caanan? Interesting?? However, I will point out that (and you can use this as well if you like) anyone who furthers their power and success by subscribing to some belief system is using that belief system as a means to specifically gain power and success. They do not care about the belief system beyond that. Whether that "anyone" is the Roman Catholic Church, Israelis, Hitler, Stalin, etc and so on makes no difference. A person with a discerning nature (which I think you have) can easily see that. I have yet to see atheism propel someone to a status of power and control. First of all "...especially in Europe..."??? Where are you talking about in Europe? Secondly, there is an underlying factor you are either side-stepping (because you are a smart person I'll go with this) or aren't aware of, and that is a dislike/fear of Western European ideas/philosophies/religion/etc. So, that these atrocities occur does not = atheism. Last of all, not believing in your god does not = atheist. Buddhism has a large following in many of those regions you mention. So, you are assuming that if a then b? I think your use of "majority" is speculation on your part. Your examples you spoke so heatedly about did not involve Christianity in government. The reasoning behind separation of C&S in this country came from an era when the government and religion went hand-in-hand. I think our "forefathers" aptly learned their lesson. It is safer to keep them separate.Damn, this is long, my apologies. Hopefully, I did not overlap what other said too much. In the end, maybe it supports what has already been said along the same lines.

Percy,You ask,Aside from the prayer studies, the Bible Code, Theomatics, and Gematrial studies (Panin), which have demons as a part of the hypotheses being confirmed, and the widespread anecdotal evidence of bizarre events? I personally conducted many prayer experiments including and excluding prayers that would have an effect on putative demons. My not-so-favorite story involved taking in a homeless couple, and finding them "possessed." I got to try out all my deliverance stuff, but these evil spirits were stubborn, maybe of the sort that would "only go out with prayer and fasting." Turns out I had a lot to learn about prayer, especially how it is mainly listening, not talking. After three days of a real mess, with the demons jumping around to various people in my family, and a sort of mass hysteria, some cheerful hispanic believers heard about the hullabaloo and came over to help. They barely spoke English, but they knew their stuff, and taught me how to get the spooks out. Before they (the demons)finally left, they left a nasty clawing scratch on a window. Outside, while we were all inside! We watched and heard the scratches appear. Haven't had that sort of problem since, but it was, ah, persuasive.This was, of course, after ten years of using deliverance prayers for all sorts of minor disturbances, with intriguing results. In one experiment, I picked one person out of a bunch of strangers on an elevator, and prayed deliverance prayers for them, to see what would happen. As we all got off the elevator, that one person, a stranger, turned and thanked me profusely, incomprehensibly, shaking my hand. Never saw them before or since.Your best bet, of course, is to read the Bible, learn from it how to get God to talk to you, ask Him to show you evidence of Demons, do what He says, and get ready for an adventure. Well, that's what I did, anyway.They are like germs in this way, too. If you are healthy, with a good immune system, you don't have to think too much about germs. Take lots of vitamin C and protein and MSM and germs are barely noticeable. Walk uprightly with God, and the spooks, though present ("He prepares a table before me in the presence of my enemies.") aren't all that relevant. Until you start doing hospital/intercession work. Then you have to be real careful, both ways.Good hunting!Stephen

The paper, which can be found here, was authored by Kwang Y. Cha, M.D., Daniel P. Wirth, J.D., M.S., and Rogerio A. Lobo, M.D.It looks like Daniel P. Wirth, a lawyer from Pennsylvania and not a doctor, has struck again, luring respected doctors from Korea into participating in a hairbrained study with results doomed never to be replicated. Wirth has in the past worked in the areas of therapeutic touch, Qigon Therapy (Chinese spiritual healing) and wound healing through prayer. His involvement, especially when combined with the spectacularly successful results, call the study into serious question.There's a well written message by Principia over at ARN that includes some genuinely supportive information about prayer studies.--Percy

Thank you for that reference, I happen to know Dale and will check with him about the accuracy of this report.If the reference you gave has it's facts straight then it appears that there may be some concern about this study. Combine that with the lack of reproduction and I think it starts to look much less "interesting".

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Common sense isn't