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Author | Topic: New Book: Kerry ‘Unfit for Command’ | |||||||||||||||||||||||
MisterOpus1 Inactive Member |
I've been arguing this specific title in a number of my local city threads, so I guess I'll just bring my dirty laundry over here.
I find it pretty funny noticing the parallels between a topic like evo./creation with such a topic like Kerry's past. In that I mean I often notice a creationist attempt to fallaciously ask an evolutionist to prove a negative, which is an erroneous burden for anyone. I find the same situation occurring here with this group of Smear Boaters, because it's really not just the account of Kerry that they are going against, but they are also going against 10 eyewitnesses that were actually on his boat, as well as documented Navy records. Of course they don't want to expound further than just Kerry's word alone, but the real burden is upon them to somehow bring positive, verifiable evidence to support their assertions. Given the fact that there were NO Smear Boat men on Kerry's boat, and given the fact that what they are stating is mere opinion, their assertions alone should be held suspect. But what's worse for this group of Smear Boaters is their questionable motives AND credibility. A good article was written back in May here: Slave labor in the statehouse | Salon.com Note the parts about Hoffmann, the commander of Kerry being somewhat obsessed with body count figures. Nice guy, huh? Funny how he is the founder of this group against Kerry. What I don’t seem to understand is, if he was so against Kerry, why then, according to the Navy Archives, did he give high praise for Kerry?:
quote: Oh but wait, what were some of those cables that Hoffmann stated praise about Kerry? Well golly gee, here they are: Kerry's charge won him a Silver Star, personally awarded by Zumwalt in a Saigon ceremony. Three days after the skirmish, Kerry and his crew also received a cable from Sealords task force headquarters.
quote: By golly, a body-count nutbag like Hoffmann praising Kerry? Who woulda thunk it? And let’s keep in mind that 9 out of 10 crewmates of Kerry support his leadership throughout his Vietnam tour. The lone wolf who doesn’t (Gardener), strangely enough seems to have some kinda political motivation against Kerry in the first place: Page not found | TIME Boy oh boy, who woulda thunk that? But wait, we’ve got more than just Hoffmann of that smearing crew to examine in their flip-flopping views on Kerry. Let’s take a look at yet another piece, this one from Fox exosing that group: http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050004
quote: Wait a tick — is that the same Grant Hibbard in that darned Smear Boat For Truth commercial? Nahh, couldn’t be!
quote: What what what?!?!? Veterans smearing Kerry having historical ties to the Bush family and GOP? No way, brother! It just ain’t true, is it?
quote: Wait a gosh darn minute! The smear group’s leader wasn’t even on the boat with Kerry? Hmmmm
quote: Oh Hibbard, you’re such a jokester!
quote: That silly Elliott guy, what was he thinking back then? Surely he just didn’t mean all those nice praises for Kerry, did he? Well by golly, we got ourselves a little flip-floppin’ goin’ on har, and it ain’t even Kerry this time! Let’s examine another guy from that smear group, the doctor Lewis Letson who supposedly examined Kerry’s 1st purple heart:
http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-swift... Funny how he wasn’t even the doctor that signed off on Kerry’s exam. Nice credibility problem he’s developed.But let’s grant this bloke, for argument sake, that he did examine Kerry, and that it was merely a scratch. Why is he after Kerry for this? Who granted Kerry the award? Did Kerry grant himself the award? Umm, uhh, uhh, was it the Navy? You betcha! so why aren't these smear boat artists going after the navy for giving Kerry the award? (Oh, sidenote, here’s Kerry’s request to go to Vietnam: http://www.johnkerry.com/...e/Request_For_Swiftboat_Duty.pdf Any conservative wish to contrast that with Bush’s request NOT to go to Vietnam?) Funny how his fitness reports from the Navy tend to contradict this group’s smear attempts. You can read those fitness reports here: http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_04_21.shtml Let’s see, who else? Oh yeah, Capt. Adrian Lonsdale, another Smear Boat winner had this to say about Kerry in November 4, 1996 issue of South Coast Today:
quote: Kerry’s fishy circumstances for earning his medals (note it is a nonpartisan website): John Kerry's Service Record | Snopes.com But most importantly, this examination into Kerry’s war record really begs the comparison to your war hero Bush and his military record (or lack thereof). By all means, please attempt to defend his unaccountability for at least 3 months. By the way, McCain isn’t too happy with this BS group either, nor is he happy with the White House for failing to condemn them. Probably feels a little familiar to him, doesn’t it?: Yahoo News - Latest News & Headlines Here's a few more websites to examine: 1. A good summary of the majority of charges by the Swifties against Kerry, and a long refutation of each of those charges: StackPath 2. The latest from factcheck.org (non-partisan, in case you're wondering) on Elliott's flip-flopping problems and affidavits: Page not found - FactCheck.org 3. Drudge continuing to push the false report on Kranish with Kerry/Edwards' campaign: http://mediamatters.org/items/200408100001 4. The latest on Bob Perry, one of the 3 big Texas GOP donors (and good ol' buddy of Bush and Rove) for this Smear Boat Group:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-perry... 5. Co-author of the book, Jerome Corsi being caught in racial slurs and bigotry: http://mediamatters.org/items/200408060010 (To be fair, Corsi has since apologized for his remarks since then) 6. Ted Sampley, co-founder of the Smear Boat group, being exposed on MSNBC for his smearing and distortion of McCain's record: http://mediamatters.org/items/200408110010 7. Jim Rassman's criticism in the Wall Street Journal on this group. He was the guy Kerry saved and received a Bronze Star. He's also a registered Republican, BTW: Get The Wall Street Journal’s Opinion columnists, editorials, op-eds, letters to the editor, and book and arts reviews. 8. A well-written and documented in-depth analysis on one of the Smear Boat's chapters on Kerry's first purple heart: Welcome fearofclowns.com - BlueHost.com Welp, that's about all. Sorry this was so long. {Shortened display form of 3 URL's, to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-12-2004 03:39 PM
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Not too long at all MrO. Thank you for the work that went into this, saved me a lot of typing time
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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nator Member (Idle past 2195 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
Well, Bush was suspended for not showing up for a physical to maintain his status as a pilot.
I wonder if this was the time when he was doing cocaine, so he didn't want to take the drug test? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-12-2004 03:23 PM
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paisano Member (Idle past 6448 days) Posts: 459 From: USA Joined: |
What's your source for this ? Your use of the term "suspended" raises questions. Suspended from flight status ?
There's nothing here. Bush was trained on the F-102, which toward the end of his term of service, was obsolete and being phased out. The ANG was being downsized as a whole, and likely wasn't interested in the expense of retraining Bush (and other F-102 pilots) on other aircraft types. So he served out his time as a ground officer. Qualifying in a new fighter type isn't like picking between a Chevy and a Ford at the rental car counter. Months of retraining are required.
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
The very much anti-Bush minnemooseus has asked me to encourage you all to here confine the discussion to the Kerry record.
The Bush record belongs in another topic. Adminnemooseus Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to Change in Moderation? or Thread Reopen Requests
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MisterOpus1 Inactive Member |
quote: Umm, yeah: {Rescaled graphic to "100%", to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus} Full size version available at http://users.cis.net/coldfeet/grounded.gif quote: This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-12-2004 04:19 PM
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MisterOpus1 Inactive Member |
My apologies Adminnemooseus. Just had to answer that one, but will remain on topic from here on out.
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JustinC Member (Idle past 4869 days) Posts: 624 From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA Joined: |
Wasn't that also the first medical examination where they had mandatory drug testing? I've heard this before, but I can't find any source to substantiate it.
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MisterOpus1 Inactive Member |
quote: Yes, here's an excerpt from a Salon.com article that describes the '72 Air Force Regulation:
quote: HTH, Opus
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MisterOpus1 Inactive Member |
Stearing back to topic (well, sort of), if individuals like the Swift Boaters for Truth want to question things like Kerry saving the life of a registered Republican, I kinda wonder if they'll question his life-saving action of this GOP Senator:
Just a moment... Hehe.
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johnfolton  Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: |
Its more than just the boat incident, whose side was John Kerry actually on, lying to the Senate, picture of Kerry with the Communists leaders in their Saigon War museum, likely the book will continue to be a best seller, the people want to know, if John Kerry is fit for command, the reason the Vets have it in for Kerry is his lying about all the abuses he never saw personally, with a straight face before the Senate, that they (Vet's) knew he never saw personally, like what the heck was he doing testifying before the Senate, it was not like he actually saw any abuses, and the abuses these Vets recieved when returning to America, while John Kerry being honored by the Communist in Saigon, etc...
File Not Found This message has been edited by whatever, 08-12-2004 06:27 PM
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
You haven't documented any "boat incident" and which of these vets that "know" what Kerry did and did not see actually served with him?
Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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johnfolton  Suspended Member (Idle past 5617 days) Posts: 2024 Joined: |
Asgara, I found John O'Neil views documented on line in an interview about what really happened in respect to the boat incident, John says its not about Kerry being a democrat, but about Kerry's lies about his record, etc...
CBN.com - The Christian Broadcasting Network INTERVIEWUnfit For Command: Vietnam Vet Recalls Serving with John Kerry August 12, 2004 CBN.com — The inflammatory John Kerry book, "Unfit for Command," by Swift Boat vet John O'Neill, is racing up the best-seller charts. Kerry supporters are accusing O'Neill and other Swift Boat veterans of being politically motivated. But the vets say John Kerry's lies about his record have driven them to act. Pat Robertson recently spoke with the controversial author about why he feels Kerry is unfit to be elected the future president of the United States. PAT ROBERTSON: John, I want to ask you something about a picture that is hung in a museum in Saigon depicting foreign activists who contributed to the Communist victory over America. Is Kerry's picture in that exhibit? JOHN O'NEILL: Amazingly, Pat, he was no hero in our unit. But he was a big hero to the North Vietnamese in their war museum in Saigon, now Ho Chi Minh City. They have a hall - it is like a Cooperstown [Cooperstown, New York - site of the National Baseball Hall of Fame] of bad guys. They have el Fatah and Fidel Castro, Mao Tse Tung, and right in the middle of it is a shrine to John Kerry. A guy from our unit discovered that when he was in Saigon on Memorial Day. Copies of those pictures can be obtained right in the book "Unfit for Command." ROBERTSON: The American people don't seem to know that. What, is there blindness now? O'NEILL: It appears to me that there is such a mass rush among the major media to try to elect John Kerry as president of the United States, that they no longer care about the truth. To us, we have people of all different kinds in our organization, and most of the people that served with John Kerry were not Republicans or Democrats. But we care a lot about the truth, because it is our unit and it's the life story of the people who lived and died with us. We know that he lied about that unit. He exaggerated wildly his own short experience in Vietnam. ROBERTSON: There is a man named (Jim) Rassman who wrote an article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of days ago, and he apparently was pulled out of the river by Kerry. Kerry got a Bronze Star for this action. He said there was fire coming from both sides of the river, that Kerry had been wounded, and an explosion blew up the boat, and Rassman went in the water. He said all of the boats left except Kerry's, and Kerry stayed to pick him up. What is your take on that story? O'NEILL: It's turned the world turned upside down. What actually happened on that morning, March 13th, according to the officers of every other boat in the incident and many of the crewmen, is that the number three boat, the boat that Kerry was not on, was blown out of the water by a large mine. All of the boats closed on the number three boat, as we always would. We would stand and fight to the end. There was one exception to that. John Kerry fled the scene. In fleeing the scene, Rassman fell off of Kerry's boat. The other boats closed on the number three boat, saved the people who were knocked off of the boat in the water, saved the boat. And finally when it was evident that there was going to be no fire, Kerry finally returned and did the decent thing, and plucked Rassman out of the water, shortly before another boat did so, within 10 or 15 yards of another boat. But the story shown to the Democratic Convention that portrayed our guys as fleeing is just a calculated lie. It makes no sense because the number three boat that they all closed on had no engines; it couldn't flee, Pat. It just couldn't happen. ROBERTSON: So you are saying that Kerry gunned his boat, and in that Rassman fell over the side? Is that what you say happened? O'NEILL: I am saying exactly that. Rassman fell off of Kerry's boat. Kerry's boat fled the scene. It was the only boat to flee the scene. All of the other guys, as we always did, stood to fight, to save the survivors of the number three boat. There was no fire, as it turned out. They saved the survivors, and after it became evident there was no fire, Kerry returned. His story is the world turned upside down, according to the people involved in that incident. ROBERTSON: He said on the floor of the United States Senate that he had spent Christmas in Cambodia, and this was in 1968. And he said he was amazed that President Nixon, who was not in office at that time, was claiming we were not in Cambodia, and he was taking fire from the Viet Cong and Khmer Rouge and other groups. Was any of that true? O'NEILL: It is a total lie, Pat. This is one of his war crimes story. He made up the story that the U.S. Government had secretly ordered him into Cambodia on Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day of 1968 he sat there desolate, wondering how they could illegally do this, listening to President Nixon, who as it turns out, did not become president for a long time. Every person that I know of - Hundreds of people - will say that is a complete and total lie. It is a typical Kerry lie, because it is made up to libel up the chain of the command and portraying Kerry as sort of an involuntary guy engaged in war crimes. And if I am not telling you the truth, if John Kerry was in Cambodia in December 24th and 25th, sue me today, Pat. John Kerry, sue me today, because once again, it is a complete lie about our unit. ROBERTSON: Where was he? O'NEILL: He was down at SaDec (SaDec Province, in the Mekong Delta, Vietnam), Pat. In his biography entitled "Tour of Duty," all of a sudden, instead of being in Cambodia on December the 25th and 25th - as he had said more than 50 times in articles, and on the floor of the Senate - all of a sudden in his biography "Tour of Duty," he is 55 miles away, at a base, safely ensconsed in a base, writing a letter about sugar plums dancing in his head. ROBERTSON: What do you think about the other people who are veterans? It seemed like the number of veterans who are going for him, his own men who were on that boat, seem to swear by him. Has he somehow twisted their minds on that? O'NEILL: They were, first of all, out of all the veterans in our unit, a very small number. Seven or eight people who served directly with him, out of about 10. And then, another small number of other people supported him from our unit. But there are 250-plus that signed the letter that can be found on SwiftVets.com | The Real Story on John Kerry's Military Service. A list of all their names, running from vice-admiral down to seaman, are contained in my book "Unfit for Command." The truth is, there are a very small number of people who support him. You'll find that some of those people were with him for as short a period of time as two days. The officers who served with him, 25 of them, two are dead. Out of the 23 living survivors who served with John Kerry day after day, operation after operation, 17 of them have condemned him. Seventeen of them indicated he was unfit to be the president of the United States. That's the truth, Pat. ROBERTSON: You are being attacked for this book, I'm sure. I think there is a complaint before the FEC (Federal Election Commission) that this book was somehow funded contrary to the Campaign Finance Law. What are you going to do about that? O'NEILL: They have so far had two large law firms send letters to 20 stations threatening suit if they carry our ad. Three different Kerry-related organizations filed complaints with the Federal Election Commission. None of that is going to silence us, Pat. We have 60 people who received the Purple Heart in Vietnam and nine who received the Silver Star. We bought that with blood and service in Vietnam, and when affairs of our unit are being discussed, it is integral to the First Amendment and integral to the ability of people to gain the truth, that we have the right to speak. One thing they can't do yet, Pat, is burn a book. They won't be able to burn this book. ROBERTSON: It is looks like it is burning the records from amazon.com, and it was just released yesterday. It just came out, and ladies and gentlemen, you really ought to read this. "Unfit for Command." It is an explosive book, and it has pictures in here of all of the pictures we are talking about, including that war museum there in Saigon. You ought to find it interesting. And give it to your friends. John, thank you for so much for being with us today. O'NEILL: One thing I'd point out is, any proceeds from my interest in the book are going to military-related charities. I am not making a dime off of the book. ROBERTSON: Fantastic. John O'Neill, ladies and gentlemen, the author of "Unfit for Command." It is dynamite.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2328 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Now, please give something from someone who was ACTUALLY there. Possibly Rassman himself???
This message has been edited by Asgara, 08-12-2004 08:31 PM Asgara "Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it" http://asgarasworld.bravepages.comhttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1492 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
He made up the story that the U.S. Government had secretly ordered him into Cambodia on Christmas Eve, and Christmas Day of 1968 he sat there desolate, wondering how they could illegally do this, listening to President Nixon, who as it turns out, did not become president for a long time. I don't entirely understand this. Nixon was elected president in 1968. What's the issue here?
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