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Author Topic:   looking for good books
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 16 of 36 (44496)
06-27-2003 10:17 PM


Isn't it a bad idea to mix all this apparent attacking of the new testement in with trying to fight the bogus science ideas of the creationists. I know that the NT has a lot of problems if you try to take it as literal and inerrant but is it necessary to upset someone by pointing that out if you don't have to?

Replies to this message:
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MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 17 of 36 (44497)
06-27-2003 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by NosyNed
06-27-2003 10:17 PM


I absolutely agree. Depending on my mood, I can take a mild to extreme agnostic stance on metaphysics. My opinion is that science cannot prove the existence of a Higher Power, and the line cuts both ways: it leaves the question to the theologians and philosophers. My issue is not with the faith of Creationists but the way they abuse science.
My recommendation of 'Tower of Babel' follows this logic. Pennock himself is a believer, but his understanding of the methodological constraints of science means he's not looking for God in a microscope. He sees Creationism as exploiting the void that only people's faith can fill.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by NosyNed, posted 06-27-2003 10:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 18 of 36 (44498)
06-27-2003 11:01 PM


I just got, as a father's day gift, Get a Grip on Evolution by David Burnie. High-school level or so, anecdotal in approach, and doesn't seem to have any axes to grind philosophically. It appears to be close to what you need, A - I'll report more when I get a little of it read.
It was also $4.98 at Barnes & Noble.

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 19 of 36 (44499)
06-27-2003 11:03 PM


Books
Hi all,
It was never my intention to attack her beliefs. Our discussions had started out on evolution and I wanted something to help her understand what the TOE was and that it didn't mean that she had to give up God.
She seems think that any talk of evolution has to be countered with attempts to "save" me. She keeps bringing out her Bible when I am at her house and she is the one that got me "The Case for Christ" to read. I have told her many times that I am not interested in being preached to, but she sees the topic of evolution as a "cry for help".
(added by edit) She equates my acceptance of evolution as the reason behind my agnostisism, so any discussion involving evolution by necessity becomes a religious discussion to her.
In no way would I want to negate her faith, but she thinks that my reticence in this area means that I am receptive to preaching. She wanted me to read this book and "see the truth". If she brings it up, I am going to tell her what I honestly think of the book and its evidence.
I have gotten her Miller's "Finding Darwin's God"...she has said she will read it. Hopefully she will.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 06-27-2003]

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 36 (61743)
10-20-2003 7:07 AM


I have heard of "The Triumph of Evolution" by Niles Eldredge. I was troubled by your recommendation, since it does not seem to acknowledge the many scientific refutations of old arguments, and continues to postulate many that we in the creationist camp have already answered. Perhaps we need to get better acquainted with each other's beliefs. There's also scientific creationist literature about, at the basic layman's level with "The Answers Book" by Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland among others. "A Skeptic's Search for God" by Ralph Muncaster, which I have quoted here several times, takes a slightly more technical view along with an investigation of proofs for God. There's also Sarfati's "Refuting Evolution", or, if you want really in-depth science, you could order a few back copies of the Creation Technical Journal. They publish refereed papers, letters, reviews, answers to questions and all sorts of information. If anyone here is willing to take an unbiased look at opposing evidence, in the interests of investigation and understanding, I will do the same with any one of the books you have mentioned.

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by MrHambre, posted 10-20-2003 8:15 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied
 Message 22 by Quetzal, posted 10-20-2003 9:48 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 21 of 36 (61747)
10-20-2003 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by defenderofthefaith
10-20-2003 7:07 AM


The Ongoing Debate
Defender,
You're not obliged to read anything that we recommend. If you're convinced by the creationist literature and feel that all the scientific refutations have been successfully answered by creationists, so be it.
Most of the evolutionists here have read plenty of creationist literature, and names like Ham and Sarfati are not new to us. Their work has been criticized by various commentators as scientifically amateurish, misleading, and intended only to produce a fantasy of a vast but imaginary materialist conspiracy. The proponents of Intelligent Design Creationism are similarly keen on trying to convince the unwary of an immense scientific cover-up.
So if all of the authors whose works we have recommended are part of this sinister conspiracy, by all means avoid their ideas. But let it be known that most of us are well versed in the creationist literature and we have honestly found it lacking.
------------------
The bear thought his son could talk in space about the time matter has to rotate but twisted heaven instead.
-Brad McFall
[This message has been edited by MrHambre, 10-20-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 22 of 36 (61757)
10-20-2003 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by defenderofthefaith
10-20-2003 7:07 AM


Hi Defender:
I have heard of "The Triumph of Evolution" by Niles Eldredge. I was troubled by your recommendation, since it does not seem to acknowledge the many scientific refutations of old arguments, and continues to postulate many that we in the creationist camp have already answered.
Since I'm the one that first recommended the book, I suppose it makes sense that I reply to this. Eldredge's book is quite unashamedly anti-creationist. It was written to counter the (at the time) quite mainstream YEC assertions, and does a pretty good job of giving the concensus opinion of science/scientists on the particular issues covered. I recommended it because Asgara had asked for a counter to some of the basic creationist positions. In spite of your denials, and in spite of AiG's "Arguments we feel creationists should no longer use", most of the "invalid" arguments are still being espoused by a large percentage of YEC's. Hovind, Baugh and others are still promulgating the exact same fallacies - and in fact are spending even more time doing so than they were when the book was first published. At least, based on the continual references to those arguments from self-proclaimed evilution-slayers that come on these message boards.
I note that you say you've "heard about" the book, rather than reading it. As an aside, I have spent many interesting hours perusing the AiG and ICR websites and articles. My question to you is more fundamental than how you can denigrate a book without having actually read it. Rather, have you read ANY mainstream book dealing with biology or evolution? I don't mean Dawkins. I mean, Wilson or Futuyma or Mayr, or even Quammon ("Song of the Dodo") or Barlow ("Ghosts of Evolution") or Weiner ("Beak of the Finch"). If so, which ones? And if so, what was it about the book that you found uncompelling or faulty? I think that might be a more productive approach here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-20-2003 7:07 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 23 of 36 (61866)
10-21-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
05-27-2003 9:48 PM


Asgara I hope you are still looking to check into books on science. Even though they do not deal with the evolution parts they nevertheless allow for an ideal insight into how science meshes together and how intricate the whole thing is.Richard Feynman has a few books that are really easy to read and points out some difficult concepts in ways that you can grasp.
The meaning of it all:Thoughts of a citizen scientist
Six easy pieces
Six not so easy pieces
QED the strange thoery of light and matter
Feynman's lost lecture :The motion of the planets around the sun

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 24 of 36 (61868)
10-21-2003 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by sidelined
10-21-2003 12:01 AM


Thanks for the recommendations sidelined. I've been wanting to read Feynman, now you've given me some more titles to look for.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
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defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 36 (61893)
10-21-2003 4:46 AM


You're right, of course - I should really read that book. Afterwards we could set up a thread to discuss whether creationism has already answered Eldredge's points or not. I also think we need to take an unbiased view at the opposing side's evidence. After all, if the other side's literature isn't that scientific you could publish an expose in this book review forum; but if they are, you'd have to investigate your own position and see which one had the more telling evidence.
I propose "The Answers Book" by Ham, Sarfati, Wieland et al. It's a basic layout of arguments for creation, and although a layman's volume it does have some juicy semi-technical areas, such as a discussion of a white hole expanding universe model which had me pondering for a long time. There are also technical books if you should so prefer. This one is probably one of AiG's more available volumes.
In return, I will undertake an unbiased and investigative reading of any interesting evolutionary literature that you propose, such as Eldredge or Mayr. After reading our respective volumes we could publish an analysis of their key ideas on this forum.
Anyone want to take me up on this offer?

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by MrHambre, posted 10-21-2003 9:11 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied
 Message 27 by Quetzal, posted 10-21-2003 10:03 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied
 Message 28 by Quetzal, posted 10-21-2003 10:13 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 26 of 36 (61916)
10-21-2003 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by defenderofthefaith
10-21-2003 4:46 AM


Defender,
You may not believe me, but many of us have read creationist literature already. We did it out of curiosity and a willingness to encounter creationist ideas firsthand. If you'd like to do the same and read a book written from an evolutionist perspective, good for you. However, you make it seem like you're so loathe to expose yourself to these ideas that you'll only do it as part of a philosophical plea bargain. And it doesn't surprise me.
------------------
The bear thought his son could talk in space about the time matter has to rotate but twisted heaven instead.
-Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-21-2003 4:46 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 27 of 36 (61921)
10-21-2003 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by defenderofthefaith
10-21-2003 4:46 AM


Hey Defender,
I don't want to come across like I'm begging out of your challenge. However, what you propose is a hell of a lot more work than I'm willing to devote to something that doesn't earn me money. Besides, I'm not much of a book critic. I have read several creationist books, including Johnson's "Darwin on Trial" and Wells' "Icons of Evolution", and although I don't mind chewing on one or more the topics in either book (especially "Icons"), I would in no wise be able to take the time necessary to do a complete review. So I guess your challenge has gone unmet. Now you can brag to all your creationist friends that you "defeated the evilutionists who couldn't meet" your challenge, or whatever it is that creationists do when something like this comes up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-21-2003 4:46 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 28 of 36 (61923)
10-21-2003 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by defenderofthefaith
10-21-2003 4:46 AM


Hambre to the Rescue
And then, Mr. H has done a remarkable job of meeting your challenge, based around "Darwin on Trial". Certainly looks like a first pass at a creditable response to your challenge. This thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-21-2003 4:46 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
defenderofthefaith
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 36 (62287)
10-23-2003 4:13 AM


"Quetzal" writes:
evilutionists
Shh! We don't use that spelling in public.
Seriously, though, I am glad to see that the creationist literature is being objectively examined. I haven't read "Darwin on Trial" but I'll potter over to Mr. Hambre's thread to see what he thinks.
Once my university studies have died down, I might publish a creationist review of evolutionary literature on this forum. I have come into contact with it somewhat recently while researching exactly how old evolutionary theory is.

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by berberry, posted 11-29-2003 10:02 PM defenderofthefaith has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 36 (69976)
11-29-2003 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by defenderofthefaith
10-23-2003 4:13 AM


I'm new here, but I've been lurking around this forum for several weeks, and I finally found a thread where I feel like I can contribute something.
If I understand the subject question correctly, the poster was looking for a concise, easily grasped book that explains scientific concepts in an entertaining way. I would strongly recommend Asimov's Guide to Earth and Space. Not only does it do all of the above, but it's a great reference to have if your knowledge of science is spotty. Asimov doesn't go into any great depth in any of the subject areas, but he covers the basics well and has a gift for making complex concepts much easier for the layman to understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by defenderofthefaith, posted 10-23-2003 4:13 AM defenderofthefaith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by NosyNed, posted 11-29-2003 10:08 PM berberry has replied

  
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