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Author
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Topic: taiji2's complaint
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3983 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 7.0
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Message 1 of 85 (737240)
09-20-2014 6:17 AM
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taiji2 writes: My chronology to the EVC forum: I had googled for places to discuss Taoism on the net. Calling yourself Taoist is quite lonely. There are no churches. The one brick and mortar place I found turned out to be a place where they teach Tai Chi and also offer a thing called chanting .... which involves white people dressing up in chinese robes and little beanie hats and doing incantations in a foreign language. Not very fulfilling, hence I sought discussion on the web. I fell across an interfaith forum. Not much in the way of Taoism, but I did try to discuss my cosmological views there with little reward. I then sought a better place to discuss cosmology and this led me to EVC. Entering the forum, the Intelligent Design thread caught my attention and that is where I went. I read through the thread we have been on and entered with the reservations I have already discussed at length. What I said about what you people here are doing is not my imagination. You have some weird game going here where you presume anyone coming into the discussion is a phony out to make trouble..... a troll in your words. I expressed my observation of this game of yours early on and have been taking a raft of shit for it ever since. You mentioned dog-piling in your post. That is a pale description of what goes on here. I found myself in single debate with a raft of hostile responders who issue insults, veiled or open, at almost every turn. I made conscious effort to not respond with name calling, and frankly until you pushed my veteran buttons I do not recall having done so. I found that any topic relevant bit of logic I presented was ignored unless it could be twisted and thrown back with derisive comments. You say my language was sharp. Did I make derisive and insulting remarks? Outright insults? You people here bait your guests with the deliberate intention of finding the right trigger for their emotional response. That is not debate. That is mind-fuck. So,,,,,, long story short, I entered the forum honestly and was not treated honestly. I never told a lie or had a hidden agenda. What you saw was what I had. You treated me, and seem to treat all who enter here, with the presumption that they are liars. Maybe people are vetted into your "circle" at some point after passing some sort of test. Who knows, who the fuck cares. If you think yourself intellectually sophisticated, be fucking man enough to admit the game you play. Anyhow, you sophisticates keep on going with your game. I do pity the poor fools who fall into here. And yes, despite all your posturing, what you do is intellectually dishonest. I think taiji2's comments are worth further discussion, and the ID thread worth preserving. Perhaps we can pursue it here, and perhaps he will participate: I think the subject is an important one. In the quote above, I've elided his military experience and his direct comments to me from his most recent post. I itch to respond to much of that, but then there will be no end. I will simply thank him for his service and agree that I am not a typical anything. What struck me most from the above quote was this:
taiji2 writes: You people here bait your guests with the deliberate intention of finding the right trigger for their emotional response. That is not debate. That is mind-fuck. Taiji2 was not, of course, treated like a guest; he is not a guest. He is a member like any other, and his posts are as open to the same skeptical probing and strong disagreement that every poster risks. He has the same responsibility to familiarize himself with the forum guidelines and to respect the various subforum rules, i.e., the more stringent rules that apply to science forum threads. This he didn't do, even after it was explained to him. Small wonder, then, that he was perceived as a troll. I'm not concerned about the accusation of EvC as a community of mind-fucking vultures circling until the proper buttons are identified for pushing. That kind of button-pushing occurs universally once tempers engage; once his engaged, he pushed many himself. For taiji2's benefit, dog-piling occurs when someone presents unevidenced assertions that have been examined many times. We are a science-minded community, so the chorus of objections is often large and loud. It is not a conspiracy; each member acts alone. I don't think taiji2 was trolling the forum. His narrative and sense of injury ring true to me. He was clearly unfamiliar with the nature and constraints of scientific evidence. Is this just an unfortunate occurrence, one that went more badly wrong than most, or do we need to change something about the way we encounter new members? The irony is that taiji2 was at least at first, treated more gently than most. Perhaps if he had lurked (that means reading without joining and engaging, taiji2) for a bit, much of the problem could have been avoided. But I don't think an enforced period of observation-only for new members would work. I wouldn't join a forum that made me keep silent for any appreciable length of time before I could participate. These questions seem worthy of reflection and discussion. I disagree with pretty much everything taiji2 had to say about the actual thread topic, but he is clearly intelligent and does have a perspective I'd have liked to hear more about.
{This topic is a spin-off of the "Is there a legitimate argument for design?' topic, Message 609 and upthread - Adminnemooseus) Edited by Omnivorous, : general clean-up Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Note in red.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2 by Percy, posted 09-20-2014 8:04 AM | | Omnivorous has replied | | | Message 13 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 11:10 PM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 2 of 85 (737242)
09-20-2014 8:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Omnivorous
09-20-2014 6:17 AM
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Hi Omnivorous, You're kinder than I can be. From his very first post Taiji2 struck me as clueless. His enthusiasm for pouncing on and clinging to irrelevancies tells me that it is an approach he has developed from long practice to deflect attention from the weaknesses in his arguments. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Omnivorous, posted 09-20-2014 6:17 AM | | Omnivorous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 09-20-2014 8:53 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2014 2:38 PM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Omnivorous
Member Posts: 3983 From: Adirondackia Joined: 07-21-2005 Member Rating: 7.0
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Message 3 of 85 (737244)
09-20-2014 8:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Percy
09-20-2014 8:04 AM
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"And the tongue is a fire..." James 3:6
I feel the weight of at least partial responsibility, Percy. Perhaps one thing taiji2 and I share as vets is the inability to refrain from drinking from a deep well of rage. I find the regular contributors to this forum the most intellectually honest people I've had the honor to know: that was the particular button that loosed my (alas, still) vitriolic tongue. So I've tried to find some redemptive (or at least edifying--I don't seek redemption  it's not on the menu--lesson. By definition, anyone who arrives here championing ID is clueless to some degree; it is an intellectually insupportable position. But if all we can do is send them reeling, then what? Ach, it's a cold gray drizzle in the north country today. I'll go walking and kick some stones.
"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Percy, posted 09-20-2014 8:04 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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Tangle
Member Posts: 9504 From: UK Joined: 10-07-2011 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 4 of 85 (737250)
09-20-2014 1:59 PM
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I think we underestimate the effect dog-piling can have on a newbie. I've often thought that the number of replies to a newbie's post should be limited to no more than a couple. After a while they can safely be thrown to the dogs but, initially at least, the 'fresh meat' effect needs controlling - especially when the place is as quiet as it is now, everyone wants a piece of the action. It takes quite a while to adjust to the difference between the rigour demanded here from the norms of pub talk - I think we need to cut some slack if we want people to settle in here.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android "Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed. Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved." - Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2014 2:10 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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NoNukes
Inactive Member
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Message 5 of 85 (737252)
09-20-2014 2:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 4 by Tangle
09-20-2014 1:59 PM
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I think we underestimate the effect dog-piling can have on a newbie. I've often thought that the number of replies to a newbie's post should be limited to no more than a couple. It's been proposed before. And now that there are so few active ID/creationists here, maybe it is even more essential that they get a soft introduction. I am going to adopt some kind of newbie rule for my own participation. Probably something based on the number of threads and posts for the newbie. The effect will likely be that I won't respond to newbies like tiaji2 at all. In looking over my own participation in the thread, I don't see anything essential. Obviously everyone cannot adopt such a rule.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by Tangle, posted 09-20-2014 1:59 PM | | Tangle has not replied |
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NoNukes
Inactive Member
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Message 6 of 85 (737254)
09-20-2014 2:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 2 by Percy
09-20-2014 8:04 AM
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I think I would like to see newbies given some kind of growth period. And it is really hard to use appears clueless" as a criteria rule because I think many of us would judge most ID proponents to be highly clueless about something pretty obvious. It is not like Behe or some with a well developed, if wrong position is going to start posting here. I'm also a bit sensitive to having poked at a Viet Nam era war veteran. If I had encountered him in public, I'm sure I would not have placed a high priority on disabusing him of his fantasies on the origins of life. ABE: If that kind of deflection is a coping mechanism, it's one that works on me. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2 by Percy, posted 09-20-2014 8:04 AM | | Percy has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 7 of 85 (737256)
09-20-2014 3:58 PM
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As one of the relatively few remaining Christians, (although not fundamentalist or creationist), on this forum it does at times get difficult. I often refrain from posting because I know that if I do with my minority viewpoint, (depending on the subject), that I will have likely committed myself to a spending a considerable amount of time to respond to numerous posters. I find that in general the responses are reflective and courteous. There are some posters who become patronizing and somewhat insulting but that is ok as I can simply choose not to respond to what it is they have posted. I am grateful to this forum as it has given me an education. I have learned about things on the scientific side of things and I have had my theological beliefs challenged and as a result I now believe things that I didn't believe before and don't believe things that I did. I think that possibly taiji2 might consider this an opportunity to learn from some very informed people and just disregard the negative that does occur here. I agree that it does at times take a bit of a thick skin, but in my view, it is worth it. Taiji2, as has already been mentioned, seems well informed himself, and I hope that he gives us the opportunity to learn from him as well.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
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taiji2
Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 124 From: Georgia, USA Joined: 09-10-2014
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Message 8 of 85 (737261)
09-20-2014 5:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
09-20-2014 3:58 PM
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opening remark
Since Omniverous has opened a thread with my member id in the title, it would be impolite of me not to respond. In making my responses, I will refrain from the sort of plain talk which Omniverous solicited from me before. That plain talk was offered in the context of one veteran having a conversation with another (that vet having requested plain talk}. It would be incorrect to take anything said there outside that context. It was a conversation between vets. I will not defend my language to anyone not a veteran. I shall make every effort to maintain civility. I will do that because that is what I would hope to find coming back to me. If I have learned anything during my time on this forum, it is that one should be careful in constructing a response to any post. With that in mind, I will take my time and reply to any who posts here, continuing until the conversation is clearly non-constructive. I erroneously posted this message as a response to GDR. It was meant to be a general response, not a response to GDR.... I will do that later. I know how to edit a post, but not how to retract it. Therefore, take this in explanation. Edited by taiji2, : No reason given.
The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth. The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind. The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad. The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by GDR, posted 09-20-2014 3:58 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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NoNukes
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 85 (737262)
09-20-2014 5:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
09-20-2014 3:58 PM
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As one of the relatively few remaining Christians, There are quite a few Christians here. I'm not sure that those Christians who are not fundamentalists have a first hand impression of what Creationists and ID proponents have to endure. I don't want to belittle your own experience, but I don't think it is the same as say Faith's or the Mike the Wiz's or ICANT's. You do occasionally get some support. But even when there were more active fundamentalists, they did not seem to support each others positions other than in the most general way.
Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by GDR, posted 09-20-2014 3:58 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 10 by GDR, posted 09-20-2014 6:25 PM | | NoNukes has seen this message but not replied |
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GDR
Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: 05-22-2005 Member Rating: 2.1
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Message 10 of 85 (737265)
09-20-2014 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 9 by NoNukes
09-20-2014 5:45 PM
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NoNukes writes: There are quite a few Christians here. I'm not sure that those Christians who are not fundamentalists have a first hand impression of what Creationists and ID proponents have to endure. I don't want to belittle your own experience, but I don't think it is the same as say Faith's or the Mike the Wiz's or ICANT's. You do occasionally get some support. But even when there were more active fundamentalists, they did not seem to support each others positions other than in the most general way. It does seem to appear to me that there are considerably more non-theists than there are theists, however I certainly can't compare what Faith and the others go through to my situation. I have no real complaint, except occasionally, to the way others correspond with me. My point was that when I post as a Christian, I wind up having to respond to several different responders which is time consuming. As a result I usually only post about anything contentious when I know that I will have a reasonable amount of time available. For example in the thread that I started about my beliefs ( My Beliefs- GDR ) I spent many hours debating my views primarily with non-theists although partly with fundamentalists as well. The thread wound up with 1324 posts. I enjoyed the discussion and even changed my position on one aspect of my beliefs as a result. The point is though that in holding a minority view one has to be prepared to spend a fair amount of time with it as you'll be largely on your own. That actually is not meant as a criticism of the forum but simply a comment.
He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by NoNukes, posted 09-20-2014 5:45 PM | | NoNukes has seen this message but not replied |
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: 11-22-2009
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Message 11 of 85 (737267)
09-20-2014 7:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 7 by GDR
09-20-2014 3:58 PM
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As one of the relatively few remaining Christians, (although not fundamentalist or creationist) There are several Christians that still frequent this forum, though a pretty eclectic group. I am one of those; theistic evolutionist (I don't particularly like the term, but probably best describes my position in this debate), an active member of a holiness church, and moderate political views.
I am grateful to this forum as it has given me an education.I have learned about things on the scientific side of things and I have had my theological beliefs challenged and as a result I now believe things that I didn't believe before and don't believe things that I did. Before coming to this forum I knew only one avowed atheist and he was one of the most despicable people I have ever known. So that was the impression I had of atheists, since that was all I really knew. One thing some churches have sort of taught is that people are atheists because they want to live vile and disgusting lives and the one person I knew who was an avowed atheist confirmed that idea. However, from discussions on this forum, I have found that is not a true characterization at all. I have learned a lot about why people are atheists and many of the reasons come from the church itself. This forum has really helped me to consider the beliefs I have and the way I present myself and how I live out those beliefs. There is also some great science discussions here. I learned just about everything I know about geology from participating in a couple threads on the subject.
I often refrain from posting because I know that if I do with my minority viewpoint, (depending on the subject), that I will have likely committed myself to a spending a considerable amount of time to respond to numerous posters. So true. It can be very time consuming and time is a very valuable commodity right now. Actually I have a couple responses that I should make from several weeks ago, but I need to be studying HBD
Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by GDR, posted 09-20-2014 3:58 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 878 days) Posts: 1517 From: Michigan Joined: 11-22-2009
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Message 12 of 85 (737268)
09-20-2014 8:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 8 by taiji2
09-20-2014 5:42 PM
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Re: opening remark
If I have learned anything during my time on this forum, it is that one should be careful in constructing a response to any post. With that in mind, I will take my time and reply to any who posts here, continuing until the conversation is clearly non-constructive. Hi taiji2. I don't have much time to spend here these days, but I still lurk around. I have been following must of the discussion and would like to offer a bit of advice. First, if you are here with the expectation of convincing anyone of anything, you are going to find it terribly frustrating. If instead you are here to strengthen your skills in developing your arguments and to consider alternative arguments you will find it much more fulfilling. Second, DO be very careful in drafting your responses. Take the time to consider what your opponents may object to and be sure to address that. The people here are sharp and can easily spot the weakness in an argument and they know how to exploit that weakness. That is what debate is. Before you post, figure out where the weakness in your argument is and strengthen it. Third, you don't need to feel obligated to respond to everyone who replies to your posts (although continually ignoring responses with strong counter arguments is bad form). Only respond to those replies that you feel will lead the discussion in a constructive direction. There are a couple members here that I think have a really bad attitude and I don't like interacting with very much, but the people you have been interacting with are not them.
I know how to edit a post, but not how to retract it. I don't think you can retract a post except to edit it and remove all the content. That how it is handled sometimes when there is a duplicate post. But I don't advise deleting a post's content except in the most extreme situation. HBD
Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca "Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem. Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 5:42 PM | | taiji2 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by taiji2, posted 09-21-2014 1:18 PM | | herebedragons has not replied |
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taiji2
Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 124 From: Georgia, USA Joined: 09-10-2014
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Message 13 of 85 (737271)
09-20-2014 11:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Omnivorous
09-20-2014 6:17 AM
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You know Omniverous, My original intention, as stated, was to respond to everyone on this thread. I was going to try and work out perceptual differences and maybe go on with conversation on this forum. What happened instead is that I went out on the internet and looked at the world news. Not that looking at the news is a big deal, I do that from time to time. But it got me to thinking. Maybe the reason I wound up on this forum to begin with was an escape of sorts from the real world. A chance for intellectual discussion that did not involve beheadings, wars on many fronts in a dangerous world and all the crap I am sure you also watch on tv and can do nothing about. That got me to thinking of my own war. Our recent conversation had already brought things flooding back. The things hanging just on the outskirts of my consciousness that I have never been able to shake through the years even though I too have a wife, kids and grandkids. Call it playing the vet card if you like, but I have recurring dreams of the one human being I shot while looking him in the face. I have recurring dreams of flying over a grass hooch ville I had been ordered to call artillery on, and the woman running from one of those hooches with a baby in her arms. Every time, I remember that, I get the same chill up my spine I had that day when it struck me I was probably killing women and children. I did a check fire by the way and stopped the shelling, But by the time I saw her who knows what I had done already. The point being, I got to thinking about what had gone on with this forum over the last week. Inane games that boil down to issues on that earthshaking thing called an internet troll. Really? I have done some truly horrific shit in my life. I just told you some of it. But being grilled as to the possibility that I am an internet troll? The idea of spending further energy trying to convince someone I am not this horrible creature called a troll of a sudden just made me realize how wasteful I had been with my time. I will hang around reading on the forum. There are smart people here and things I can learn. But the rest of it was something I shouldn't have done to start with and something I don't choose to continue. To everyone else. No harm done. It has been a learning experience for me and a very credible reality check. I will be listening to you but won't bother you again. later
The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth. The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind. The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad. The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Omnivorous, posted 09-20-2014 6:17 AM | | Omnivorous has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 14 by Percy, posted 09-21-2014 8:13 AM | | taiji2 has not replied | | | Message 70 by Stile, posted 09-23-2014 1:13 PM | | taiji2 has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22479 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.7
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Message 14 of 85 (737273)
09-21-2014 8:13 AM
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Reply to: Message 13 by taiji2
09-20-2014 11:10 PM
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Hi Taiji2, No one's playing games, you're just paranoid and become quickly upset when feedback isn't flattering. The reason so many suspect you're a troll is because in a thread about intelligent design you quickly became diverted onto tangents and no amount of cajoling was able to bring you back. If from here on out you discuss intelligent design at the Is there a legitimate argument for design? thread and your complaints here in this thread then you should meet with better outcomes. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 13 by taiji2, posted 09-20-2014 11:10 PM | | taiji2 has not replied |
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taiji2
Member (Idle past 3482 days) Posts: 124 From: Georgia, USA Joined: 09-10-2014
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Re: opening remark
thanks herebedragons Your tips are well-intended and taken as so. thanks. But this is their game, their rules. If I played their game as they do, it might change me in ways I wouldn't like. If i try to play their game, my rules, it is futile. catch 22.
The purpose of debate IS to manifest truth. The purpose of debate is NOT to change someone's mind. The purpose of debate is NOT to tear down a person or make them look bad. The purpose of a debate is NOT to win.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by Percy, posted 09-21-2014 1:56 PM | | taiji2 has replied | | | Message 17 by ringo, posted 09-21-2014 2:30 PM | | taiji2 has replied | | | Message 39 by Taq, posted 09-22-2014 12:59 PM | | taiji2 has not replied |
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