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Author Topic:   Pattern Formation and Gould's case for Whitman's pigeon
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5058 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 1 of 6 (370765)
12-18-2006 9:16 PM


On pages 383 -395

Click for full size image
quote:
Subjects and Series | Harvard University Press
S. J .Gould presents (page 392) Whitman’s case where
quote:
natural selection bears close scrutiny as an aid (still useful today) for clarifying the borderline between two intergrading yet contradictory strategies: (1), using the structuralist and formalist concept of channels of pluralistic reinforcement with natural selection to forge helpful revisions of basic Darwinian theory (the position advocated in this book); or (2) viewing channels as so deep, so unidirectional, and so limiting that such constraints impel evolutionary change from within, leaving selection only to tinker with minor details (a truly anti-Darwinian theory that led the Modern Synthesis to reject orthogenesis completely).
But could the possibility of color pattern following Wolfram’s New Kind of Science
Wolfram: Computation Meets Knowledge
as I open beyond a chaotic window below
for snake color patterns
(stripes vs. spots in birds as in Gould on Darwin and Whitman indicated in the two pigeons above) indicate that Whitman’s case is not an exemplar for the logic of the difference (between selection as powerful or subsidiary) and that Gould misappropriates a creationist/evolutionist issue for the historiography of theories in science that instead is being altered and transformed contrary to Gould’s intended use of Whitman’s perspective on Darwin.
Gould ended essentially(page 395) with,
quote:
Whitman surely erred in interpreting a channel of variation - a pathway of potential evolution in either direction - as a one-way street of inevitable change. (The reinterpretation of orthogenetic “one-way street of “channels” of preferred variability establishes a key “translation” for updating this older and valuable literature into relevance for our modern debates. I also strongly suspect, in opposition to both Darwin and Whitman, that ancestral pigeons were neither two-barred nor checkered, but both. After all, ancestor exist as populations, not archetypes. Both states persist in continuous gradation within many modern populations of pigeons - and this entire channel may well have been expressed among variable adults in ancestral populations.)
Does not Wolfram’s view remove the “archetype” label if substantive for pattern formation in organic beings and invalidate Gould’s use of Whitman??
Here are the pages on Whitman,
quote:
The Structure of Evolutionary Theory by S.J. Gould Harvard, 2002.
Edited by Brad McFall, : added content (Gould's pages)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNem, posted 12-19-2006 2:30 AM Brad McFall has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminNem, posted 12-19-2006 2:32 AM Brad McFall has not replied
 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2006 7:20 PM Brad McFall has replied

  
AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 6 (370810)
12-19-2006 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brad McFall
12-18-2006 9:16 PM


Where are you going with this?
I understand the body of thesis, however, I don't know what you are trying to glean from presenting it. Present a statement of aspiration or present a question to prospective posters to help the audience understand your specific position.
If you clean it up a little bit, we'll promote it.

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Brad McFall, posted 12-18-2006 9:16 PM Brad McFall has not replied

      
    AdminNem
    Inactive Member


    Message 3 of 6 (370811)
    12-19-2006 2:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Brad McFall
    12-18-2006 9:16 PM


    Disregard
    Disregard my last request, I see your question all the way at the bottom.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Brad McFall, posted 12-18-2006 9:16 PM Brad McFall has not replied

      
    AdminNem
    Inactive Member


    Message 4 of 6 (370813)
    12-19-2006 2:33 AM


    Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

      
    AZPaul3
    Member
    Posts: 8546
    From: Phoenix
    Joined: 11-06-2006
    Member Rating: 5.0


    Message 5 of 6 (370994)
    12-19-2006 7:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Brad McFall
    12-18-2006 9:16 PM


    Does not Wolfram’s view remove the “archetype” label if substantive for pattern formation in organic beings and invalidate Gould’s use of Whitman??
    Not necessarily. Wolfram may have found a deep mechanism in simple rule automata that explains better the patterns seen. But, Gould’s contention that Natural Selection still operates to dispel Whitman’s one-way channels is valid. Both of the Wolfram rules for pigeon marking (barred and checkered) would be in effect in the population. Natural selection determines which is most prevalent.
    Other cellular rules that would produce other marking schemes (Whitman’s channels?) could also be present in the population only to be manifested when the niche changes and natural selection allows or inhibits the rules. Though he may not have known of the situation I see Gould in support of Wolfram.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Brad McFall, posted 12-18-2006 9:16 PM Brad McFall has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by Brad McFall, posted 12-20-2006 7:13 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
    Brad McFall
    Member (Idle past 5058 days)
    Posts: 3428
    From: Ithaca,NY, USA
    Joined: 12-20-2001


    Message 6 of 6 (371249)
    12-20-2006 7:13 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
    12-19-2006 7:20 PM


    Is "Gould" 'in support' of Wolfram?
    I may have mislead you by not including all of the material content. I have added all of Gould's pages on Whitman above.
    Wolfram wrote (in A New Kind of Science)

    Click for full size image

    and
    which refers back to
    Sorry about my marginalizations.
    Further Wolfram had said,
    I am trying to point out that Gould uses Whitman's work to establish the difference which IS a part of the issues in creation and evolution that natural selection is impotent yet LOOK, Wolfram is essentially using this same thought and yet Wolfram seems to feel that his work is about "adaptation" which for Gould falls with Darwin (functionalism) rather than Whitman, postitive constraints, Gould's proposed changes (formalism) etc.
    So either Gould's use of the difference of functionalism and formalism is wrong(seemingly based on Darwin's use of the words "independent" and "utility" I think)or Wolfram has hyped up his contribution beyond what Feynman said to him (I have posted on this on EVC before) or both. I, think both, but that is just me and there is still some room for some of your notion as contained in the post if "variation" and "variable" were further refined. I do not find evolutionists doing this
    (which is why I have
    http://www.aexion.org
    and
    http://www.axiompanbiog.com
    )
    and so I think that the whole issue can not be invoked under a creation/evolution thought.
    Notice in particular that Wolfram said, "Self-reproduction, for example, suggests that flames are alive but mules are not." I know that people at Wolfram's business suggested contrary to me that there is no new "physics" in Wolfram's work as I had suggested on their forum but I AM suggesting there is new biology, here and now.
    I posted this topic because understanding it is important in answering the issues on bilaterians that Bernd raised and said he will speak about later in another thread.
    Are you still as certain that regardless of whether Whitman might have known of the situation or not that "Gould" seems in support of Wolfram? Gould is not Darwin.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 12-19-2006 7:20 PM AZPaul3 has not replied

      
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