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Author Topic:   Should we teach both evolution and religion in school?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 646 of 2073 (742630)
11-22-2014 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Colbard
11-22-2014 11:03 AM


Re: Belief in science
To Percy and Coyote,
Are these posts of yours, your opinion or a reflection of other opinions.
If they are your opinions, they don't, in your scientific system, have any value without peer reviewed evidence.
However, if you are just reflectors of other men's thoughts, then that speaks for itself as intellectual codependency.
What you are saying is that because I disagree on certain points which you deem to be right, because it has been peer reviewed and accepted on a grand scale, that I must be wrong.
But your opinion does not count, and neither are you in a peer reviewing board that represents global science. Unless you have been chosen to represent or speak for the board?
Your system demands accountability to which you must hold to, otherwise you are being hypocrites for asking me to back up anything, which I don't have to in my world, because a person's intelligence actually counts, whereas in yours, you are answerable to an authority on knowledge. Does that sound like "all men are created equal" or communism?
And that is what you want to keep in education? It's not compatible with Christian freedom is it?
Posting this type of nonsense is not helping your cause.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 11:03 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(2)
Message 647 of 2073 (742631)
11-22-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Colbard
11-22-2014 6:47 AM


Re: Belief in science
You would, but at which point is up to date true, when by its own claims is saying that it has to be flexible to change with new evidence?
You could teach whatever you want but you would not be allowed to test anyone on it, or fail them because it may all be proven false in the future.
The idea of progressive knowledge is like a boat without a rudder.
At least with creationism you already have an established base, which does not change, it is only discovered in more detail.
Again, an incisive critique of these so-called "scientists" with their so-called "chemistry"
You're right, we gotta stop testing people on this stuff.
On an unrelated note, do you work for the Chinese government?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 6:47 AM Colbard has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 648 of 2073 (742637)
11-22-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 632 by Colbard
11-22-2014 6:47 AM


Re: Belief in science
You could teach whatever you want but you would not be allowed to test anyone on it, or fail them because it may all be proven false in the future.
I took a course on human evolution in college. On the first day the Professor said that they understood that this may be a controversial topic for some students and that you didn't have to believe a word that they were teaching you. What you would be tested on is your ability to explain the current scientific understandings of human evolution.
So, the understandings don't even have to be right for you to be tested on them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 632 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 6:47 AM Colbard has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 650 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2014 2:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 429
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 649 of 2073 (742638)
11-22-2014 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 643 by Colbard
11-22-2014 11:03 AM


Re: Belief in science
It's not compatible with Christian freedom is it?
Is that the special kind of freedom where you get to lie about reality?
If they are your opinions, they don't, in your scientific system, have any value without peer reviewed evidence.
However, if you are just reflectors of other men's thoughts, then that speaks for itself as intellectual codependency.
Rather poorly executed false dichotomy, wouldn't you say? Do you troll/poe so many places that you can't even take the time to pretend you're trying? Getting boooooring....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 643 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 11:03 AM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 655 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 9:16 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 650 of 2073 (742639)
11-22-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 648 by New Cat's Eye
11-22-2014 2:34 PM


Re: Belief in science
I took a course on human evolution in college. On the first day the Professor said that they understood that this may be a controversial topic for some students and that you didn't have to believe a word that they were teaching you. What you would be tested on is your ability to explain the current scientific understandings of human evolution.
I taught a college course that included evolution and related subjects. On the first day I passed out the casts of three innominates (half of the pelvis). They were modern human, a chimpanzee, and an Australopithecus africanus. I asked students to group the three innominates into two groups based on morphology.
They all grouped the human and Australopithecus together because the shapes were so similar, even though the Australopithecus and the chimpanzee innominates were closer to the same size.
Never had a problem after that.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 648 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 2:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 651 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 3:03 PM Coyote has not replied
 Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE, posted 11-22-2014 8:47 PM Coyote has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 651 of 2073 (742645)
11-22-2014 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Coyote
11-22-2014 2:43 PM


Great idea! Playing with the casts was one of my favorite parts of the course!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2014 2:43 PM Coyote has not replied

  
NAME OF THE ROSE
Junior Member (Idle past 3434 days)
Posts: 1
From: New Jersey
Joined: 11-22-2014


Message 652 of 2073 (742666)
11-22-2014 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 650 by Coyote
11-22-2014 2:43 PM


Re: Belief in science
Evolution is clearly a scientific fact, it is also clearly a scientific fact that evolution can not happen without DNA to mutate and or combine DNA of both parent organisms, in order for evolution to happen. Evolutionary theory does not explain where DNA came from, it can not. Now that said evolution is a wonderful thing as it allows the human race to, for instance produce better food crops, corn being one. If you could invent an organism or life process, that would adapt itself to changing conditions, and thereby improve itself over time, would you not do this? Sure you would, as this would free your time to do even more inventing, why must evolution and ID be totally separate? Why can evolution by DNA code changes, not be an engineered process? If you have the answer, you are a fool, because at the moment, this answer is beyond the knowledge curve of the human race, yet so many know for sure what is true......! The only thing that you can truly be sure of, is that 99.9999 percent of all knowable knowledge, is unknown.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2014 2:43 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 653 by jar, posted 11-22-2014 9:04 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied
 Message 654 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-22-2014 9:15 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied
 Message 657 by Coyote, posted 11-22-2014 9:22 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied
 Message 658 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-22-2014 10:31 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied
 Message 663 by RAZD, posted 11-23-2014 5:09 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied
 Message 676 by deerbreh, posted 11-25-2014 2:15 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 653 of 2073 (742670)
11-22-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE
11-22-2014 8:47 PM


Re: Belief in science
There is absolute evidence for evolution.
There is zero evidence of any designer and certainly not an intelligent designer.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE, posted 11-22-2014 8:47 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 656 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 9:20 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 654 of 2073 (742671)
11-22-2014 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE
11-22-2014 8:47 PM


Re: Belief in science
Evolution is clearly a scientific fact, it is also clearly a scientific fact that evolution can not happen without DNA to mutate and or combine DNA of both parent organisms, in order for evolution to happen.
I'm with ya.
Evolutionary theory does not explain where DNA came from, it can not.
Actually, the principles in the Theory of Evolution can be applied to pre-DNA molecules and offer some explanation. For example, the RNA world hypothesis:
involves random mutation and natural selection acting on RNA before DNA ever exists.
The key component to evolution that you need is imperfect replication, not necessarily actual DNA.
Now that said evolution is a wonderful thing as it allows the human race to, for instance produce better food crops, corn being one. If you could invent an organism or life process, that would adapt itself to changing conditions, and thereby improve itself over time, would you not do this?
Hypothetically speaking, you might worry that it would evolve past you. Kinda like how we're accidentally driving the evolution of more dangerous antibiotic-resistant bacteria.
Sure you would, as this would free your time to do even more inventing, why must evolution and ID be totally separate?Why can evolution by DNA code changes, not be an engineered process?
It can/could definately be an engineered process. But ID makes no attempt to explain that.
If you have the answer, you are a fool
Oh
because at the moment, this answer is beyond the knowledge curve of the human race, yet so many know for sure what is true......! The only thing that you can truly be sure of, is that 99.9999 percent of all knowable knowledge, is unknown.
The question you seem to be asking, as opposed to "why not ID*", is why can't evolution be considered to be planned, like by God or something. The answer to that is that it can. Theistic Evolution is a thing.
*ID is a specific anti-evolution movement, not a general God-accepting approach to the question

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE, posted 11-22-2014 8:47 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3412 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 655 of 2073 (742673)
11-22-2014 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 649 by Capt Stormfield
11-22-2014 2:36 PM


Re: Belief in science
Capt Stormfield writes:
Is that the special kind of freedom where you get to lie about reality?
Rather poorly executed false dichotomy, wouldn't you say? Do you troll/poe so many places that you can't even take the time to pretend you're trying? Getting boooooring....
I don't see freedom as an opportunity to lie do you?
Let me know when you see a half monkey man and I'll make sure you can have your medication.
In the mean time don't lose your hold on what others are saying, because your opinion must line up with theirs, unless of course you have a resource of knowledge that puts you on an equal footing, something like nature and revelation. I am sorry if they don't belong to you, its a pity you would turn down such a good offer for popularity and self gratification.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 649 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-22-2014 2:36 PM Capt Stormfield has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-22-2014 10:32 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 660 by Percy, posted 11-23-2014 8:26 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 661 by Capt Stormfield, posted 11-23-2014 1:35 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3412 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 656 of 2073 (742674)
11-22-2014 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 653 by jar
11-22-2014 9:04 PM


Re: Belief in science
Jar writes:
There is zero evidence of any designer and certainly not an intelligent designer.
In your case I'd have to agree.
You see that's rude what I said, but that's what you get without ID, you are of far more value than an accidental complex mole.
Edited by Colbard, : add

This message is a reply to:
 Message 653 by jar, posted 11-22-2014 9:04 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 657 of 2073 (742676)
11-22-2014 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE
11-22-2014 8:47 PM


Re: Belief in science
...why must evolution and ID be totally separate?
Because one is a science which follows the scientific method while the other is the exact opposite, following scripture and dogma.
And, welcome to the site!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE, posted 11-22-2014 8:47 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 658 of 2073 (742684)
11-22-2014 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE
11-22-2014 8:47 PM


Re: Belief in science
Why can evolution by DNA code changes, not be an engineered process?
Well because when we observe these changes there aren't any engineers involved.
Otherwise, not a bad first post, welcome aboard.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 652 by NAME OF THE ROSE, posted 11-22-2014 8:47 PM NAME OF THE ROSE has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 659 of 2073 (742685)
11-22-2014 10:32 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Colbard
11-22-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Belief in science
Let me know when you see a half monkey man ...
Are you talking here about the copious "ape-men" found in the fossil record?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22480
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.8


(3)
Message 660 of 2073 (742711)
11-23-2014 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 655 by Colbard
11-22-2014 9:16 PM


Re: Belief in science
Colbard writes:
I don't see freedom as an opportunity to lie...
Are you sure? Because you're the only one here making bald statements that have no factual support. For instance here you imply Capt Stormfield believes there's such a thing as "half monkey men" when he never said anything of the sort:
Let me know when you see a half monkey man and I'll make sure you can have your medication.
In fact no one here, except apparently you, is confusing monkeys with apes.
In the mean time don't lose your hold on what others are saying, because your opinion must line up with theirs, unless of course you have a resource of knowledge that puts you on an equal footing, something like nature and revelation. I am sorry if they don't belong to you, its a pity you would turn down such a good offer for popularity and self gratification.
This is a bit confused, but it sounds like you're suggesting that people should only accept knowledge they gain themselves. Isaac Newton said, "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants." Current discoveries build on past discoveries. If every researcher started from scratch there'd be very little scientific progress.
The current generation passing on their knowledge to the next is the practice in all fields of human endeavor, be it science, knitting, plumbing, art or football. Perhaps God's greatest gift is our ability to pass knowledge on to others, a quality possessed by other animals to only a very limited extent.
Science class is where what science has learned is imparted to students, just as all the other subject classes are where knowledge in those subjects is imparted to students. Evolution, an ancient Earth and an ancient universe are what science has learned, so that is what we teach in science class. A global flood, a young Earth and flood geology have found no scientific support, so we don't teach them in science class.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Colbard, posted 11-22-2014 9:16 PM Colbard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 667 by Colbard, posted 11-24-2014 6:31 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
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