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Author Topic:   Music, Computers and Copyright
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1 of 29 (144075)
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


Yesterday while discussing my best available excuses for not meeting the latest revised schedule with a good friend and colleague, I mentioned that I was having a lot of fun with music lately, among other things, checking CDs out of the library and ripping them onto my computer.
He was horrified.
An amateur musician himself, he's well aware that music piracy takes money out of the pockets of the artists. I'm aware of this, too, but hadn't really given it any thought because I don't steal music.
Or do I.
This all started when Yahoo Messenger, which we use because it's less confusing for my elderly but otherwise computer-savy mother because it will let you display people's real names. This puts normal names in her friends list like, for example, Bob, Carol, Ted and Alice instead of phoenix71, ebcdic and shoeshine4.
Anyway, Yahoo Messenger recently added a radio feature called LaunchCast. I gave it a try, and it was pretty neat. Many of the stations are free, but the stations I wanted to listen to, namely Classical and Oldies, are pay stations, so I plunked down my $35/year and began listening. Each station is not just a single loop of music. If you don't like a song, you can click on the skip button.
I really liked the Classical and Folk stations, but the Oldies, while old, were mostly not by anyone I had ever heard of. Their Oldies station had no Beatles, no Rolling Stones, no Dave Clark Five, no Beach Boys, no Four Seasons, no anybody.
And after a while I began to notice the repetitiveness of the Classical station, and the fact that they had only symphonic music. They don't have a loop of music that gets repeated ad infinitum (like Netscape Radio, which I tried a couple years ago), but still, the list is not that long. I think the list probably evolves over time, but I haven't listened long enough to be sure. Most likely they're influenced to play songs from CDs that their partners are most interested in selling.
So I started looking around the Internet for other radio style products. I found that there are a number of radio stations on the Internet. Some are just broadcast radio stations streaming their programs onto the net, while others are Internet only stations. Some of the latter will display information about the song being played. But I found I couldn't get into them whenever I wanted - there were always only so many streams available.
Then it suddenly hit me - I have around 150 CDs. Maybe I could load my CDs onto my computer and play them with one of those newfangled computer jukeboxes. I'd have a lot more CDs if I hadn't at some point noticed how rarely I listened to them. I love to listen to music on the radio, but music on CDs is a drag. There aren't too many groups I want to listen to 50 or 60 consecutive minutes of their music. Buffalo Springfield's side 1 of their 1966 LP is the last one I can think of. The same is also mostly true of Classical music. There are some symphonies I can listen to all the way through, Beethoven's 5th being an example, but when it comes to other forms like piano sonatas and chamber music, I just love them, but please, just 5 minutes worth at a time! After that I'm climbing the walls.
So, what should I use to rip my CDs onto my computer. My daughter already uses iTunes and has an iPod, so I downloaded iTunes and started checking it out. I ripped all the songs off a couple CDs and started playing around. The playlist features seemed fine (more than fine, actually, as long as you don't mind layering multiple playlists so that you can AND/OR criteria together).
And so I ripped my entire CD collection onto my computer, but only the tracks I like. Suddenly I was having a wonderful time with my music. Like any jukebox, iTunes will shuffle up your playlist to make it just like a radio, but with no commercials and no dogs.
Naturally a CD collection as small as mine has a number of significant holes in it, and so I started looking at how I could fill them in. It turns out iTunes has a Music Store. You can buy songs ONE AT A TIME for 99 cents each. Let me repeat that. You can buy songs ONE AT A TIME. You do not have to buy the album to only get that one song that you like. You can buy just that song.
I probably purchased around $50 worth of songs before I started wondering, "Just how much do I really own these songs." So I started checking things out, and it turns out that purchased music is protected. It will only play in iTunes or in an iPod. It will not play on RealAudio. It will not play in MusicMatch Jukebox. It will not play on non-iPod MP3 players.
Even worse, even though iTunes maintains a list of music you've purchased, if you experience a disk crash and lose all your purchased music, you cannot re-download it. You're just out of luck. This is a big concern to me, because even though I've given myself a budget of only $20 a week for music, in a few years I'll have several thousand dollars worth. Backups have suddenly become very important to me.
And what if Apple goes under or for some reason they stop selling and supporting iTunes. What then? Well, I'm sure they'd say something like, "You can still continue to use the last version of iTunes. What's the problem?" Well, the problem is that the last version of iTunes might run on Windows/XP 2006, and it might run on Windows/XP 2008, but at some point it will cease to run on the latest Windows OS. And then what?
And thinking in the long term like this is very reasonable - I already do this. I grew up with the Beatles, I bought all their CDs when they re-released the music starting around 1985, and I still listen to them more than 20 years later. If the record labels of the Beatles all go bankrupt, I am still going to be able to play their CDs. But if Apple goes bankrupt, for how long after am I still going to be able to listen to their purchased music?
So I felt I had to protect myself. I started going to the library and sifting through the CDs so that I would only buy music that neither I nor the library already had. I started ripping music off the library CDs onto my computer. It seemed a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Until yesterday.
I share my friends concern about music theft. My own industry, software, has piracy issues just like the music industry. In general, I'm on their side. But the more I purchase music tied to proprietary players over the Internet, the more I feel exposed and foolish. I don't want to be a music scofflaw, but I don't want to be an idiot, either.
Opinions?
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 09-23-2004 11:51 AM Percy has replied
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 09-23-2004 12:18 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 8 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-23-2004 2:19 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 13 by arachnophilia, posted 09-23-2004 5:40 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 09-24-2004 8:40 AM Percy has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 29 (144084)
09-23-2004 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


I probably purchased around $50 worth of songs before I started wondering, "Just how much do I really own these songs." So I started checking things out, and it turns out that purchased music is protected. It will only play in iTunes or in an iPod. It will not play on RealAudio. It will not play in MusicMatch Jukebox. It will not play on non-iPod MP3 players.
These aren't so much consequences of some draconian DRM scheme as it's a consequence of the fact that the files you downloaded aren't MP3's at all; they're Apple's proprietary AAC format. Currently, iTunes and the iPod (as well as HP's upcoming hardware based on the iPod) are the only things that play these files.
But this stuff is relatively easy to circumvent, because Apple's DRM is actually not that restrictive compared to others. For instance, there's no limit to how many times you can burn that song to a CD - with the stipulation that you can only burn the same playlist three times, if it has these DRM'ed songs on it.
I don't want to be a music scofflaw, but I don't want to be an idiot, either.
I realize it's a pain-in-the-ass workaround but you can archive all your dowloaded songs onto audio CD on a burner (currently avaliable for all of about 20 bucks or so.) If you re-import them, you can do so in MP3 format and they'll play on anything, DRM-free. Of course you lose all the track info, which you have to put in by hand because your burned custom CD has no CDDB entry.
(Also, now's the time to remind you that by default Apple imports songs in AAC format, not MP3. You can change this setting, however.)
I use iTunes for my audio "needs" because I also love the Music Store, and I love the "radio" station presets it ships with - I listen to "Fistful of Sountracks" a lot while I play video games.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 11:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2004 12:08 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 12:28 PM crashfrog has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 3 of 29 (144089)
09-23-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
09-23-2004 11:51 AM


When microsoft launched its own music download service recently there was a short period of time when its technical page offered some helpful advice on how you could listen to music you purchased on the Microsoft store on your ipod.
What it suggested was simply the reverse of Crashfrog's advice, Burn your MP3/WMA files onto a CD and then import them through itunes into AAC format. Way to workaround the DRM microsoft . This advice was very quickly taken down for some reason.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 09-23-2004 11:51 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 29 (144096)
09-23-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


As Crashfrog has said it isn't as simple as DRM (although there is DRM in the mix it can be circumvented and would be if Apple went away.) In practice it might be inconvenient if Apple did fold, but it is not a straight loss.
The other point I want to make is that from a purely ethical standard HOW you buy the music is not really the issue. The issue is whether you paid for it AT ALL. You should feel free to make backups or copies in other formats - so long as you buy the music somehow. If you have bought a somg from iTMS there is no reason to feel bad about ripping a copy from a borrowed CD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 11:17 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2004 12:26 PM PaulK has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 5 of 29 (144099)
09-23-2004 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
09-23-2004 12:18 PM


But when Percy gets a CD out of the library he is probably paying a fairly nominal fee, I know that my library charges me about 80p for a CD for a week. I hardly think the music business would regard this as having 'paid' for the music.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 09-23-2004 12:18 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 3:09 PM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 09-23-2004 7:11 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 6 of 29 (144100)
09-23-2004 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by crashfrog
09-23-2004 11:51 AM


Crash writes:
I realize it's a pain-in-the-ass workaround but you can archive all your dowloaded songs onto audio CD on a burner (currently avaliable for all of about 20 bucks or so.) If you re-import them, you can do so in MP3 format and they'll play on anything, DRM-free. Of course you lose all the track info, which you have to put in by hand because your burned custom CD has no CDDB entry.
Interesting. I had no idea it was that easy.
It is in the music industries interest to promote scarcity. I understand that. But music companies are not alone in wanting to follow their own self-interest, and I'm pretty interested in not throwing my money away.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 09-23-2004 11:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by crashfrog, posted 09-23-2004 12:36 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 9 by Rei, posted 09-23-2004 2:34 PM Percy has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 7 of 29 (144103)
09-23-2004 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
09-23-2004 12:28 PM


I had no idea it was that easy.
If they wanted to make it harder, you wouldn't be able to burn the track on a CD at all, which some of the other guys actually don't let you do. Which sucks because then you can't play it in the car or anything.
If you decide to switch over to one of the other guys, you need to check what their DRM scheme will let you do with the track. I'm pretty sure, though, that Apple has one of the less restrictive schemes. As I said it's the one I use, but I don't buy a whole lot of music. Usually a track or two but I have downloaded an entire album because I had a real CD that got too scratched to play. (Remember when they told us these things were indestructable?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 12:28 PM Percy has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 8 of 29 (144111)
09-23-2004 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


Copying other peoples cd's
I copy cd's I don't own, have exchanged cd copies with an internet friend in Texas, and expect to do so again.
I would love to support the deserving artists by buying their product, but...
I am currently poor.
CD's are overpriced.
I have spent a lot of money on cd's in the past - I have done plenty to support the recording industry.
The ratio of "free cd's" to "purchased cd's" for me is pretty small.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 11:17 AM Percy has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7012 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 9 of 29 (144115)
09-23-2004 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
09-23-2004 12:28 PM


Just don't plan on storing music long-term on home burned CDs. While *modern* commercial "stamped" CDs, which are made not with a laser but using a mould, are tested to last for over 100 years if they don't get scratched, and a few companies that make CD-Rs have claimed that CD-Rs will last as long, the reality isn't that simple. Depending on the conditions where you store them, they may well last decades, or they may only last months. In my experience, almost all of my music backup CDs that I had burned in the mid 90s have errors in places now (the first errors showed up after about 5 years). If you want archival storage, get a tape drive.
* - Old stamped CDs also had problems with corrosion and dye wear; these have largely been corrected.
BTW, if the main issue that you're struggling over is your conscience about copying... send the artist some money. I'm sure they wouldn't send it back Besides, artists make a tiny portion of the money that you spend on a conventional music purchase (I'm not sure about ITunes). Contracts usually state 12-15%, but there are a lot of fees that they have to pay on that, and often they don't even start making even a reduced rate until they sell a certain volume. If sending them money is too much trouble, go see them in concert or buy some merchendise; they'll often make a higher percentage off that sort of stuff than off music sales.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 12:28 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-23-2004 2:50 PM Rei has not replied
 Message 11 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 3:05 PM Rei has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 10 of 29 (144119)
09-23-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rei
09-23-2004 2:34 PM


High speed vs. low speed burns
I am under the impression that burning an audio cd at lower speeds can have an advantage. In talking to an "expert" once, the opinion was that the higher speed burns will work fine on home systems, but may have problems in automobile players (which, by the way, are cd ROM players).
I had borrowed a home burned cd from a friend. It apparently had been burned at a high speed. It was next to impossible to get to play in my car deck, but played fine in the home unit, or in the computer. The copy I made played fine in the car deck.
I wonder if the slower burn rates might also be good for increasing the cd's durability?
BTW, I burn most at 8x. I did burn some at (I think) 16x. I should see if those 16x burns tend to have play problems in the car (which, unfortunately, is currently broke down at a different location).
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rei, posted 09-23-2004 2:34 PM Rei has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 11 of 29 (144123)
09-23-2004 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Rei
09-23-2004 2:34 PM


Rei writes:
BTW, if the main issue that you're struggling over is your conscience about copying... send the artist some money.
Yes, that's primarily the issue. But sending the artists (plural, not singular) money isn't really practical, since I'm up to 86 different artists at this point, and counting.
I would gladly send the right industry representative money. All I want is a record someplace that I bought these songs and I have the right to play them for my own personal use. As long as I can play them on my computer and in my stereo and in my car and on my mp3 player and so forth, and as long as a several thousand dollar investment isn't lost because my disk crashes and my CD backups fritz out while the industry says, "Sorry, we know you bought them, thank you very much, and we're sorry for your loss, but you only get one download per purchase." Heck, I'm a sucker, sell me insurance. Jack the price up to $1.09/song and give me permanent download rights.
But don't require me to act like a sucker just 'cause I have a conscience, that's just taking advantage. I want to feel good about myself, but there are limits.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Rei, posted 09-23-2004 2:34 PM Rei has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 12 of 29 (144125)
09-23-2004 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
09-23-2004 12:26 PM


In most of the US, almost all materials in public libraries are free. We live in a small town whose library has no music CDs, but we're also a member of the big city library nearby, and they charge $50/year if you're not a resident, but their music CD collection is very poor.
And you're right, none of the money goes to the recording industry, at least not directly.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2004 12:26 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 29 (144180)
09-23-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


i have only a few albums that i listen to on a regular basis that i don't own in some form. most of them can't be bought anywhere (demo's, independent releases, etc). but of the ones that can be found, only two i really feel bad about, and intend to buy at some point.
these are the first two vast albums. if anyone has heard of them, they did something really, really revolutionary just recently. the last cd they made, "nude" was comprised of the best 12 songs from two ten-song demos, which they sold over the internet. not on cd, but in mp3 format. send them 3 bucks with paypal, you get ten songs.
basically, each was a 3 dollar cd in itself, except they never had to pay any record company, any album art designer, any publishing cost, etc. almost all of that 3 dollar went straight to the artist. compare that with the record-label standard of less than dollar per album.
with a strong fan base, word of mouth/internet, money going to the artist not a company, and really good music... they made a killing.
lesson to the record companies: work with it, not against it.
i do download music. the two most common reasons i download music are either because i want to hear the song for myself, or so i can have a portable copy of it. i'm a vinyl collector. while i can rip my vinyl to my computer, i'd rather a better transfer method. so for instance, i downloaded rage against the machine's entire catalog one night, but theoretically it's ok because i've already bought all the albums. and i do listen to them, but turntables don't work so well in cars.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 09-23-2004 04:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 11:17 AM Percy has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 29 (144230)
09-23-2004 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Wounded King
09-23-2004 12:26 PM


And that is why I said that Percy should buy the track in some form before copying it. I did not suggest that paying a borrowing fee to the library was sufficient.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2004 12:26 PM Wounded King has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 29 (144395)
09-24-2004 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
09-23-2004 11:17 AM


One thing everyone needs to be aware of...
is that the government is getting seriouos about intellectual property piracy. In fact, they are going way beyond what is economically reasonable.
Check out this DOJ press release.
If you read this press release (what Ashcroft does instead of hunting down terrorists) you will see that the DOJ estimates that the total economic cost of internet piracy might be as high a 50 Million dollars. To combat such a risk, the FBI and DOJ as well as police agancies in at least 10 other countries spent untold man hours as well as other resources that quite likely added up to another 50 Million dollars.
It is actions like this that let me sleep soundly at night. Why waste time on terrorists when we can go after the guy that downloaded the latest video game.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 09-23-2004 11:17 AM Percy has not replied

  
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