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Author Topic:   Is Christ cruel? (For member Schrafinator)
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 31 of 306 (213216)
06-01-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Faith
06-01-2005 4:25 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Faith writes:
Well, I don't deserve credit at all, I know I don't deserve salvation, and I'm well aware that I could have gone on to my death never knowing God and am extremely grateful to Him that He didn't leave me in that condition.
If it's nothing you did, if it's nothing you deserve, if God deserves the credit, then how can you blame someone who God chose to leave "in that condition"?
In the first days of believing in God I was afraid that I would lose it again, would fall back into doubting it all as I had done for most of my life, and lose God again, and I prayed that He would not let that happen. I think that kind of will to believe, but especially the dependence upon Him to bring it about, He will honor.
You keep going back and forth. First it's something God grants you, then it's something you did.
Look, the Bible...is very clear: believe and be saved -- the ONE thing people will not do is what it asks -- BELIEVE IT. It warns repeatedly against believing what the "world" says, what the "wise" of the world, the philosophers or thinkers of the world say -- and yet this is what unbelievers do anyway and are even exhorted to do as if it were the rational thing to do. But Jesus says to believe. Therefore they are "without excuse."
And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?
Scripture also says that God is not the author of sin, so that anything we do that is sin, that opposes God, that is disobedient, is our responsibility, not His. He DIDN'T "create us this way" in the sense of creating our sin, our fallenness.
Is God all-knowing and all-powerful or not? If he is, then he created Adam and Eve knowing they would fall and that one day there would be a soul named Schraf who would be condemned to hell.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 4:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 5:13 PM Percy has replied
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:20 PM Percy has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 32 of 306 (213219)
06-01-2005 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Modulous
06-01-2005 4:38 PM


Re: Free will
Modulous writes:
If God is all powerful then He is capable of creating something which acts independently of Him, with its own free will.
Granting what you say for the sake of discussion, God gives us free will, but if we exercise it and don't accept and worship him, then we get eternal damnation. This would seem to answer the thread's question.
He also creates souls with the ability to choose to either heed to the words of the temptor (with prior knowledge the existence of the temptor) or to ignore the words of the serpent and to re-embrace the Lord and come back to the flock.
And this is consistent with free will how?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Modulous, posted 06-01-2005 4:38 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Modulous, posted 06-02-2005 1:34 AM Percy has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 33 of 306 (213220)
06-01-2005 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
06-01-2005 4:57 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
And other religions send pretty much the same message. Who to believe?
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place. ALL other religions promise you salvation if you obey all their rules. Christianity alone says you are incapable of obeying them, so God sent His Son to spare you.
I acknowledged the difficulties between a God who is sovereign and our responsibility. But again scripture clearly says He is not responsible for our sins, which include the sin of disbelief. ForeKNOWLEDGE, yes, but we are on our own with the sin.
All I can say about my having been granted the grace to believe and others not (yet?), is that if you want to believe you can ask God for the grace. Jesus says "come unto Me." Jesus says "Believe." There is no ambiguity at this level. At this level it is your own will that decides your fate.
This message has been edited by Faith, 06-01-2005 05:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:57 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 5:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 43 by Cthulhu, posted 06-01-2005 7:08 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 306 (213221)
06-01-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Percy
06-01-2005 4:57 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
You keep going back and forth. First it's something God grants you, then it's something you did.
Perhaps it's both. Here's my scriptural evidence: "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you . . ."
See? Both.
As regards the problem of free will, there is always Calvin's answer: God is outside of time and therefore does not FORESEE you doing anything. He just sees you doing it in the eternal present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 4:57 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:26 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 9:34 PM robinrohan has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 306 (213224)
06-01-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by nator
06-01-2005 3:39 PM


Schraf I can tell you a couple things for sure about salvation.
First, if you want in you're in. I bet you and GOD will have hours of fun discussing the nuances of various oils and vinegars. Just imagine the varietals he's tasted and probably has on hand for you to sample. Remember that olive branch the dove brought back?
The second thing is you won't have to worry about Bible thumpers bugging you, they won't even get into the parking lot much less get to come to the the barbeque. One thing I look forward to is the near total lack of Christians that will be heaven. Instead, jess 'bout anyone will be able to belly up to the bar and if they can tell a good story or pass on some good information, they'll be welcome.
GOD's not cruel, though he may pull your leg some. If you've tried your best and not set out to deliberately hurt folk like those bigots supporting the 'Defense of Marriage Act' and other discriminatory legislation or tried to keep kids in ignorance like those pushing to teach Creationism and ID, you'll be more than welcome anytime.
This message has been edited by jar, 06-01-2005 08:04 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by nator, posted 06-01-2005 3:39 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 36 of 306 (213225)
06-01-2005 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by robinrohan
06-01-2005 5:20 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
So are you saying that this "eternal present" encompasses all of eternity? The point where Adam was created? The point that Schraf's soul was created? The point that she was born? The point where she realized that she didn't believe? The point where she will die?
In this "eternal present" does god know everything that is happening?

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:20 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:33 PM Asgara has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 37 of 306 (213227)
06-01-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
06-01-2005 5:13 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Faith writes:
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place. ALL other religions promise you salvation if you obey all their rules. Christianity alone says you are incapable of obeying them, so God sent His Son to spare you.
And these qualities specific to Christianity are defining of truth how?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 5:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 8:28 PM Percy has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 306 (213228)
06-01-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Asgara
06-01-2005 5:26 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
That's right. There is only now. He knows everything in the present but he doesn't FOREKNOW anything. There's nothing to foreknow.
I think Boethius said this, 4th or 5th century, before Calvin did. So we have a tradition here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:26 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:44 PM robinrohan has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 39 of 306 (213233)
06-01-2005 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by robinrohan
06-01-2005 5:33 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Then for all practical purposes it is the same as foreknowing with the same problems. If god knows everything that is happening then he knows what state anyone's "soul" is in at death. Therefore he knows that certain people will die as atheists.
If god knows that people will be atheists at death and still brings them into being, or allows them to come into being, or whatever your brand of god does then it stands to reason that these particular people are created solely to be damned.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:33 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:49 PM Asgara has replied
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 9:01 PM Asgara has replied
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 06-02-2005 3:16 AM Asgara has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 306 (213236)
06-01-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Asgara
06-01-2005 5:44 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Therefore he knows that certain people will die as atheists.
He does not know that certain people WILL die as atheists. He just sees them dying as atheists at the same time that he sees them being born and the universe being created. He's not making them do it; He's just watching them.
Hence, they have free will.
It's an answer to the question, if God foreknows all, then we have no free will. But he doesn't foreknow anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 5:44 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 6:12 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 69 by lfen, posted 06-01-2005 11:25 PM robinrohan has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 41 of 306 (213242)
06-01-2005 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by robinrohan
06-01-2005 5:49 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Did he or did he not know their atheist/death state at the same time he allowed them to be created?
No one says he "made" them do anything. The problem comes if you claim omnipotence for god AND creation of all things. If these BOTH are not facets of your belief than I have no problem.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"
select * from USERS where CLUE > 0
http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 5:49 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by robinrohan, posted 06-01-2005 6:24 PM Asgara has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 306 (213245)
06-01-2005 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Asgara
06-01-2005 6:12 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Did he or did he not know their atheist/death state at the same time he allowed them to be created?
Yes. But the question that the God-out-of-time idea was supposed to answer was, how, if God has FOREknowledge, can we possibly have free will?
We come to a fork in the road, and we can choose fork A or fork B. According to the God-in-time idea, God knows that we will choose fork A. Therefore, how can we possibly choose fork B? Therefore, we have no free will.
But if God is outside of time, He does not know ahead of time what we are going to do. There is no "ahead of time." So we have free will.
Now the other problem is, why did God create Schraf in the first place, knowing that she would be an atheist? But by phrasing it this way, we have jumped back into time again. Even God cannot know what does not exist: and what does not exist--in God's Reality--is the past or the future.
And, yes, this view is supposed to be compatible with omnipotence and creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Asgara, posted 06-01-2005 6:12 PM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:37 PM robinrohan has replied

Cthulhu
Member (Idle past 5852 days)
Posts: 273
From: Roe Dyelin
Joined: 09-09-2003


Message 43 of 306 (213257)
06-01-2005 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
06-01-2005 5:13 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place.
The cult of Dionysus does. Ditto for Mithraism, if I remember correctly. In short, don't say what other religions don't do unless you have knowledge of them. Just some helpful advice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 5:13 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 8:21 PM Cthulhu has not replied
 Message 47 by Faith, posted 06-01-2005 8:40 PM Cthulhu has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 44 of 306 (213270)
06-01-2005 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Cthulhu
06-01-2005 7:08 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
Prove it. I know what I'm talking about and you are believing some kind of bizarre counterfeit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Cthulhu, posted 06-01-2005 7:08 PM Cthulhu has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 45 of 306 (213272)
06-01-2005 8:28 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
06-01-2005 5:27 PM


Re: You left out one important bit
NO other religion offers you salvation by another's death in your place. ALL other religions promise you salvation if you obey all their rules. Christianity alone says you are incapable of obeying them, so God sent His Son to spare you.
And these qualities specific to Christianity are defining of truth how?
First things first. You claimed IIRC that it's hard to decide among religions because they all say basically the same thing and I showed you that Christianity is truly Something Else. Do you acknowledge this or not?
As for "defining of truth how?" I guess the answer is that you can believe it or not believe it. If you'd rather work your way to heaven, good luck.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 5:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Percy, posted 06-01-2005 8:48 PM Faith has replied

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