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Author | Topic: Christianity and the End Times | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I really appreciate your remarks on spiritual life and hope they will inspire me to greater discipline. I'd rather keep the focus there than on possible disagreements about the scripture, but I'm going to take your view of the parable of the virgins as a reason to spend a lot more time in prayer and devotions. It's scary to think of missing the Rapture and having to be martyred in the Tribulation. I'm too old. But if that's what comes I'll need all the spiritual strength I can get, and there are so many people I care about that I don't want to have to go through that either maybe it would be helpful if I did stick around and go through it with them anyway.
I think it is very close. Do you? Look forward to your view of Revelation 7. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined:
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LNA: The Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic, a heretical writing. Those are not the words of Jesus. If you care about what Jesus actually said, and I don't know if you do, I can recommend only the King James Bible, I the 1789 update. All the other Bibles we have these days are based on Greek texts that were at the very least altered by Gnostics in the first centuries. Yes this is controversial and this is just my opinion but it is based on quite a bit of study and it is given in case it might help pry you loose from your addiction to false teachings.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Though this could merit a discussion, I'll just say that the sixty six books enumerated in my RcV (Recovery Version) will be for me the word of God.
Good enough for now. Some people who make a real issue about the canon of scripture are simply hunting for a rationale not to listen to anything. I use the Recovery Version, Darby's New Translation, 1901 American Standard, and sometimes refer to Bible Hub to spot check over 18 to 20 other English translations to get a sense of how other English Bibles render a passage in question. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18298 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I received a recovery version from this organization known as The Local Church Movement started by Witness Lee and Watchman Nee. Though charged with being a cult of sorts, there is valid teaching emanating from these organizations. Do you have any connection with or commentary on the local church movement? I personally won't hold it against you if that's where your emphasis on Bible Study was instilled, for I realize that you never refer to anything but the Bible itself as your source of study and wisdom.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain " ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
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Taq Member Posts: 10038 Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Faith writes: LNA: The Gospel of Thomas is Gnostic, a heretical writing. Those are not the words of Jesus. If you care about what Jesus actually said, and I don't know if you do, I can recommend only the King James Bible, I the 1789 update. All the other Bibles we have these days are based on Greek texts that were at the very least altered by Gnostics in the first centuries. Yes this is controversial and this is just my opinion but it is based on quite a bit of study and it is given in case it might help pry you loose from your addiction to false teachings. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the New King James Bible? It appears to use the same source texts as the KJV. It is essentially a translation of the KJV into modern english.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the New King James Bible? It appears to use the same source texts as the KJV. It is essentially a translation of the KJV into modern english. I wish it were. I used it for many years and like the way it reads, but then found out that although it is supposedly based on the Greek Textus Receptus, which is what underlies the King James, they've changed thousands of words from the King James, not merely updated the language, and copied many readings from the other Bible Versions that are not based on the Textus Receptus. And I came to find the notes on most of the pages referring to readings from the "oldest" and supposedly superior Greek manuscripts, which are those that many have exposed to have been altered by early heretics, to be annoying and to undermine the authority of the scripture. .
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2319 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Does the Bible have study notes?
I was about to tell jaywill I might have had (around 10-15 years ago) a little New Testament from them. Now that I saw your post, I am pretty sure it is the same thing. I saw something once that caught my attention. Does the text for Acts 15:20 (or roundabout) have study note saying that James was still captive to the law? I kept the little New Testament just for that note. (the note might have been around James 2 or Galatians 2 and of course Acts 21) EDIT I can't find it online, and was about to give up, but now I see that my New Testament was the STUDY BIBLE. I get hammered by evangelists in New York (usually Puerto Rican protestants) and often have Bible's given to me. I kept this one for a while, but it was so small that I lost it.) Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Watchman Nee is one of my favorite teachers. I was never attracted to Witness Lee and kept seeing criticism of him as heretical but when I did some checking I felt that wasn't fair, though I haven't gone deeply into the questions about him.
I just looked up the Recovery version and see that like most/all the other modern Bibles it is based on the Nestle-Aland Critical Text which incorporates the heretical Greek texts Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which were surreptitiously substituted for the traditional Textus Receptus by the committee that in 1881 issued the revision that now underlies all modern Bibles. I've had a blog on this subject for years I titled "The Great Bible Hoax of 1881" where I've noted some of the main issues involved. There can also be problems with the English translation apart from the Greek texts and I don't know about that in the case of the Recovery version. After becoming aware of the problems with the modern Bibles I had to conclude that the King James version is the only trustworthy English Bible we have whatever our problems with the language or whatever small improvements in the translation might be needed. Its underlying Greek texts are reliable unlike those of the other versions, and I have to think it a very important factor that the men who translated it were known for both their scholarship and their godly lives, some known for hours of prayer a day. There is no one of that caliber on any of the translating committees for the modern Bibles. If there had been, most likely the hoax would have been exposed a long time ago. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2319 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
Should "This day I have begotten you" be in the Luke 3:22 baptism story of Luke or not?
It is in the canonical (Roman Catholic authored) Letter to the Hebrews (albeit placed in the context of creation) and the Hebrew Psalms. I think it was taken out but was in the oldest gospels. SECOND ISSUE. And what is your opinion of translators using the Greek Septuagint quotation (with the Greek word "virgin") a single word in the Isaiah 7:14 text (for which the entire Septuagint verse was used and embedded in the Greek Gospel of Matthew)? Isn't it dishonest for Old Testament translators to claim to be quoting the Masorah for the Old Testament but then to smuggle in a Greek word? I'm talking about the Old Testament. The Jewish Christians were unanimous in asserting that the Hebrew said "young women" (As even you will admit that it did). And that is just the Old Testament issue. (there is also the thorny issue of there being a Hebrew Gospel of Matthew that Jewish Christians used and even Jerome said it was the original) Here is the earliest mention or the Ebionites (around 180-190 AD). http://www.mesacc.edu/...81/handouts/irenaeus-ebionites.html Irenaeus said:
quote: The RSV translators used the accurate translation (young woman) of the Masorah for the Old Testament Bible section (leaving the accurate Greek translation "virgin" for Matthew), for the first translation, but the public demanded the O.T. text be changed to "virgin". 1 step forward, 1 back. Justine Martyr had a dialogue with Tyrpho the Jew (an actual Jew and not a Jewish Christian), and the issue of the YOUNG WOMAN (in the Hebrew scriptures) came up multiple times. And Justin quoted Luke 3:22 in this exchange. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/...dialoguetrypho.html
quote: I will combine the rest of chapter 87 and all of 88 (I am changing the format slightly plus adding caps) Justin replied:
quote: Luke 3:22 (the Hebrew Matthew used by Ebionites also hade this type of Baptism)was quoted in 140(or 150 or 160 or whenever Justin wrote this)to say "this day have I begotten thee". But no modern translation uses this in its translation, despite the textual witness evidence Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1465 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Would it be possible for you to take, say, one simple point that interests you, and present it in, say, one simple paragraph, stating why it interests you? Because all you are doing is multiplying words without purpose as far as I can see.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2319 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
You said there are 2 issues when it comes to translations:
The actual original language texts used (and/or) The translation itself. Correct?
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
I have meet with churches according to localities since 1974. Those outside look at this move of the Lord and need to call it something. Local Church Movement may be a term that some well or ill meaning observer passed on to you.
Christianity pushed Watchman Nee's books on personal spirituality but opposed or ignored his books on church life according to one church for one city. Witness Lee was a co-worker of Nee who was still free to travel and carry Nee's message after Nee had been imprisoned by the Communist in Mainland China. Critics have attempted to drive a wedge between the two men's ministries. But I can assure you that the imagined or accused descrepencies are artificial. You seemed to at least in part had some realization of the erroneous criticisms of Witness Lee. IF ... you have a Recovery Version, it would be excellent for you to list a dozen verses related to the subject here and look up the footnotes in the RcV to see what they say. The apologetic arm of LSM (Living Stream Ministry Publishers) for the messages of Nee and Lee can be researched at - Contending for the Faith – Beloved, while using all diligence to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you and exhort you to earnestly contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. -Philippians 1:7 I definitely believe that it is a move of the Holy Spirit to recover the local ground of the practical church life - one city - one church. It has been the god ordained remedy for division and denominationalism that has convinced me that these two brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had something genuine from the throne of the God. It makes some sense that God had to go to a "virgin" land like China where Christianity had not so entrenched itself in traditions, in order for God to open up and end/time channel for recovery of the church life. I have as always checked out all things with the Bible and been both supplied with grace and life and truth from the ministry from the local churches. This is a brief word. Next I probably will move closer to what you were concerned with - preparation for His sudden snatching away of some overcoming saints. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2319 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2
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Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1962 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
The new covenant ministry is to impart a living Person Christ into people. He is a seed that we must water and tend to. God causes the growth. And rapture is something of a culmination of ripeness, readiness resulting from this GROWTH.
Here Paul says the normal church is God's FARM and God's building:
For we are God's fellow workers, you are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. (1 Cor. 3:9) The various workers and apostles PLANTED and WATERED this growing life of Christ on God's FARM.
I planted. Apollos watered, but God caused the growth. (v.6) Concerning Rapture notice that it is a culmination of RIPENESS of the "crop" in God's field. When the crop reaches growth and building up a HARVEST is enacted by God.
And He said, So is the kingdom of God: as if a man cast seed on the earth. And sleeps and rises night and day, and the seed sprouts amd ;engthenes - how, he does not know. The earth bears fruit by itself:first a blade, then an ear, then full grain in the ear. But when the fruit is ripe, immediately he sends forth the sickle, because the harvest has come. (Mark 4:26-29) So we can see from First Corinthians that the normal church experience should be of planting and watering Christ in men. And GOD causes the growth of the plants. And from Mark that RIPENESS of the growing plants must one day result in HARVEST - a reaping of the mature crop that God has planted in the earth.
Revelation 14 is very good to show that the taking of the saints is in terms of FIRSTFRUITS which ripen early and HARVEST which ripenes at the end. See Revelation 14:1-5 and Revelation 14:14-16 Between these two reapings are the events of the great tribulation of three and one half years. That is a reaping of FIRSTFRUITS close to the commencement of this great tribulation and a reaping of the HARVEST at its close. Some of the crop is ready EARLY and as a reward is reaped BEFORE the commencement of the great tribulation. This will be a minority. The majority of the crop of God's people on earth will not be ready and will be RIPENED with the help of the events of the great tribulation. They TOO are raptured as a majority HARVEST at the three and one half year's conclusion. In each case it is a matter of the GROWTH of the divine life within the believers. We should not be too subjective but care for one another and the gospel. In caring for one another a door will be opened to us to be ready to be raptured at the proper time. One other passage in this post - Rapture is not a matter of many spiritual giants. Rather it is a reward for normal Christian brotherly love and being true to His word. The church in Philadelphia does not consist of many spiritual giants. The Lord says that she has "a little strength" . Yet the door is opened to her that no man can shut - into the coming millennial age. And she is promised that she will be kept from the very HOUR of tribulation which is to come upon the whole earth. Her need for that time has been superseded by the daily faithfulness and mutual brotherly love of the saints - all of which are really little ones, not particularly powerful.
And to the messenger of the church in Philadelphia write: These things says the Holy One, the true One, the One who has the key of David, the One who opens and no one will shut, and shuts and no one opens: I know your works, behold, I have put before you an opened door which no one can shut, because you have a little power and have kept My word and have not denied My name. (Rev. 3:7,8) Brotherly love (Philadelphia) calls for oneness. And not denying the name of the Lord Jesus requires that we hold no other name up above His. All things are ours. All servants of God are ours. But we are Christ's alone and He is God's alone. So in the oneness that hastens the Lord's turning of the age just little saints with faithfulness is the key. Christ opens a door to such which no critics can shut. Please do not take any of this as some automatic assurance on my part because I meet on the local ground (churches according to cities). Grasp instead the principles. Here we see the lessons have been learned in DAILY walk which make the lessons of the great tribulation unncecessary. As a reward those who overcome the surrunding lukewarmness are taken out of the earth before it begins.
Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, top try them who dwell on the earth." (v.10) The CONDITIONAL promise should not be overlooked. And difficulties arrive when it is ASSUMED that the entire church on earth will be raptured pre-tribulation. What does it SAY though? The promise to be kept out of the hour of worldwide trial is not based upon merely being a believer but upon overcoming surrounding degradation, which results in other names being exalted and longsuffering to be neglected.
BECAUSE ... you have kept the word of My endurance, I ALSO will keep you out of the hour of trial ... " IF you have a Recovery Version you should carefully read the footnotes of brother Witness Lee on this passage. They certainly have persuaded me upon careful examination. Now I will only say a brief word about Revelation 7. This vision of a unnumerable multitude which came out of the great tribulation is an inserted vision to show GENERALLY - that God will preserve ALL those who have trusted in His salvation from the foundation of the world. There "great tribulation" means the entire tribulation of all of world history since the creation of man on the earth. These are those who come out of the overall great tribulation of all human history. The vision is an inserted vision simply to assure John that in spite of the severe judgments to come eventually ALL of God's saints from the foundation of the world will come through history to arrive in God's temple, God's bulding and rest in a symbolic Feast of Tabernacles with palm branches. We are assured that ALL saints will be taken. This does not mean that all saints will be taken at the SAME time. For length's sake, I stop here. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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LamarkNewAge Member Posts: 2319 Joined: Member Rating: 1.2 |
quote: Study the Boxer Rebellion. It was a 1899 rebellion against Christian power. The Chinese nationalists that fled to Taiwan were (brutal) Christians. China was led by a Christian from 1928 till the overthrow, and Chiang Kai-shek ruled Taiwan till 1975. But almost 10% of China was ruled by a Christian king in the mid 1800s. Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - Wikipedia
quote: I do see the "end times" themes as already in the consciousness. And Christians had influence centuries earlier than the "end times" kingdom of 1850 . Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.
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