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Author Topic:   fair trial?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 76 of 137 (183696)
02-07-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by berberry
02-07-2005 8:13 AM


You mean I can't think he's guilty without having antipathy for the rich?
Yes you can but that is not what you said. Here is the full quote...
I still don't see any harm in offering an opinion prior to a celebrity trial. I would see the harm, as I said before and you agreed, if we were talking about some poor guy who couldn't afford his own attorney. That's not the case, and as I see it the system is already stacked in MJ's favor.
Does the above not suggest that you think that it is okay to do certain things in the case where the defendant is a celebrity, and so has the deck stacked in his favor, where it would not be okay for a poor schmuck?
If not, then I simply do not understand the above statement. If so, then that is antipathy toward the rich (or famous).
Given that it has once sentence explaining sympathy toward the poor, and the next saying this is not the case, it is pretty clearly worded as sympathy for poor antipathy for celebrity.
But who gets to determine when enough evidence is in?
Anyone with a sense of reason. It is well known that in this case neither the prosecution nor the defense has revealed all that they have to the public... that inherently means there is more to be revealed some of which may make or break the case.
If the prosecution had released some kind of vivid documentation that would be hard to refute, then you might have a case for saying it is reasonable to draw a conclusion. But this is not the case.
From what I understand the family came and stayed at MJ's place while he was gone, after the events were supposed to have taken place. On top of the fact that they sent their kid to his place despite knowing the rumors about MJ, doesn't their subsequent action raise some question in your mind about their believability?
MJ said he routinely sleeps with pubescent boys. Given the allegations against him and the similarity to earlier allegations against him and the fact that not only did he not attempt to clear his name when it happened before but in fact continued sleeping with little boys, I've made up my mind that he's guilty.
One thing in general does not lead one to any viable conclusion about a singular specific case. Indeed it could be just as likely that this family, or the DA, have decided to make a case because they see him as easy meat.
Prove it.
I already did and you have admitted it. Your opinion is based on very weak evidence which is logically inconclusive. Further it is known that people tend to believe repeated opinion, even if false. Thus your erroneous statements poison the well of public knowledge.
Do you need me to provide studies regarding the above?
How is that a plea for anything?
You are saying that despite the knowledge that your opinion is biased and essentially worthless, that because you have a right to say anything you want you will say anything you want no matter how worthless. You are also taking it as an assault on your free speech that I am criticizing what you are doing.
My free speech rights are to criticize those that state ridiculous opinions. Indeed that is part of the idea. You counter bad speech with rational speech. Here I am.
You want to be lazy, go ahead. I will point out why it is lazy and not beneficial.
Just as I will point out to any creo or ID theoris positing false notions about science and scientists... because they heard them say they don't deal with the supernatural, which must mean they hate god... that they are being intellectually lazy and not beneficial. Certainly their words don't help when good science is in the court room or the legislative arena.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 8:13 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 2:55 PM Silent H has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 137 (183735)
02-07-2005 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Silent H
02-07-2005 11:20 AM


quote:
Given that it has once sentence explaining sympathy toward the poor, and the next saying this is not the case, it is pretty clearly worded as sympathy for poor antipathy for celebrity.
Buy a goddamned dictionary holmes and look up 'antipathy'. The word means a bit more than 'lack of sympathy'.
quote:
It is well known that in this case neither the prosecution nor the defense has revealed all that they have to the public...
Once again, for about the 15th time: I DON'T CARE WHETHER ALL THE EVIDENCE IS IN OR NOT. MY OPINION IS BASED ON THE WORDS OF THE DEFENDANT. He said he regularly sleeps with little boys. Given that he narrowly escaped prosecution a decade ago for doing that very thing, and given the fact that he had a good lawyer who was bound to have advised him that he must stop doing it or else something like this would happen, I don't see any innocent way to interpret the fact that he still sleeps with little boys unless he's mentally ill.
In fact, I can't see any innocent reason why a middle-aged man would regularly invite pubescent children to share his bed.
You mentioned the boy's parents. You didn't say precisely what you think of them, but for my part I'd like to see them on trial as well. I think their behavior has been grossly negligent.
Besides, you don't really care about anything you've been pretending to care about. If you did, there are several other people who've posted in this thread with whom you should be taking issue. It's very interesting that you haven't done so.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 11:20 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 3:20 PM berberry has replied
 Message 81 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 5:04 PM berberry has not replied

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6723 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 78 of 137 (183739)
02-07-2005 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by berberry
02-07-2005 2:55 PM


Reasons
quote:
In fact, I can't see any innocent reason why a middle-aged man would regularly invite pubescent children to share his bed.
Perhaps in his own way, he is trying to show love to these people by having them in bed. Maybe he feels that he can best reach someone with his love by doing so when these people are still young.
I know that the law says it is wrong. But isn't it this same law system that in most states says that it is wrong for two people of the same sex to show their love for each other in marriage?
Fifty years ago, two men sueing the city of New York for a marriage licience would have been a waste of time. Today, it is plausible. Maybe MJ is just 50 years ahead of his time judicially.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 2:55 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 3:33 PM Lizard Breath has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 137 (183748)
02-07-2005 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Lizard Breath
02-07-2005 3:20 PM


Re: Reasons
Lizard Breath writes:
quote:
Perhaps in his own way, he is trying to show love to these people by having them in bed. Maybe he feels that he can best reach someone with his love by doing so when these people are still young.
That might make sense were it not for the earlier case of a decade ago. Like I said, at that time his lawyer was bound to have advised him to stop sleeping with children. If MJ had been doing nothing wrong, simply adjusting his habits to preclude sleeping with children shouldn't have been a major problem. But since he didn't do that...
quote:
But isn't it this same law system that in most states says that it is wrong for two people of the same sex to show their love for each other in marriage?
I'm beginning to feel the same sort of frustration that Rrhain expresses whenever these two topics come up together. Why is the behavior of two consenting adults in any way comparable to child molestation, which is at least the charge if not the fact of what happened here?
What is it about child molestation that reminds you of consenting, adult homosexual relationships?
What is it about consenting, adult homosexual relationships that reminds you of child molestation?

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 3:20 PM Lizard Breath has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 3:43 PM berberry has not replied
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 5:20 PM berberry has replied
 Message 83 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 5:26 PM berberry has replied

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6723 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 80 of 137 (183754)
02-07-2005 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by berberry
02-07-2005 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons
I'm not talking about child molestation. From what little details I've read, he didn't hurt them. And I'm not putting homosexuality in with child molestation. I'm saying that homosexuals are fighting for what they think is right against popular society and perhaps MJ is doing the same thing in his own unique reality.
Personally, if a child molester went after one of my kids, I'd rub him out. But if a homosexual came up to me and wanted to talk about anything other than homosexual content, I'd have a talk.
So I'm not putting you in with some other catagory. We've already been here before though in a previous thread. You know where I stand on the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 3:33 PM berberry has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 81 of 137 (183779)
02-07-2005 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by berberry
02-07-2005 2:55 PM


Besides, you don't really care about anything you've been pretending to care about. If you did, there are several other people who've posted in this thread with whom you should be taking issue. It's very interesting that you haven't done so.
I already said that I was not just referring to your statements, but chose your post since it was the last one before I posted and contained some good example quotes. You attempted to defend your position and so it went on.
I really do care about everything I said here.
If it makes you feel better, run with this equally poorly generated opinion.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-07-2005 17:07 AM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 2:55 PM berberry has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 82 of 137 (183784)
02-07-2005 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by berberry
02-07-2005 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons
Not that it is my position but it should be obvious, shouldn't it?
What is it about child molestation that reminds you of consenting, adult homosexual relationships?
What is it about consenting, adult homosexual relationships that reminds you of child molestation?
Neither are examples of consenting adult relationships between a man and a woman, thus they are both wrong. Or should I say, both hang from the same rope, unless one decides to arbitrarily pick and choose and say as long as it is adult, we don't need to worry about it being a man and woman.
They are both primarily morals laws.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 3:33 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by berberry, posted 02-08-2005 1:07 AM Silent H has replied

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6723 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 83 of 137 (183786)
02-07-2005 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by berberry
02-07-2005 3:33 PM


Re: Reasons
In other words, was what MJ did really child molestation, or was it a more progressive form of consenting sex? The reason that I bring it up with homosexual marriage is that the issue is the legality of consenting sex, not nessessarliy an age issue.
Some will argue that children need to be protected from sexual encounters at an early age but I know that in public schools, sexual issues are expounded on at an early age. So what is the difference between talking about sex at a young age and having sex at a young age? I think that society already knows that kids are going to enguage in sex or they wouldn't make condoms available to them in schools. I don't think that they teach sex is bad at that age, just getting pregnant or transmitting diseases is bad.
So then what's the difference between MJ loving these people in this circumstance verses the homosexual issue of loving each other in marriage. Can they prove that harm was done to the children other than claimed mental issues? I have 3 of my employees going through divorces and ALL 3 of them have ex's saying that they suffered mental harm. I'm asking because I don't know but the lines are a little more blurry to me than probably you.
The fair trial should be what's covered under the umbrella of consenting sex first and then determine if what he did with these people was consenting or under durress. (In my opinion.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by berberry, posted 02-07-2005 3:33 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by berberry, posted 02-08-2005 1:13 AM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 86 by NosyNed, posted 02-08-2005 1:46 AM Lizard Breath has not replied
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 02-08-2005 1:58 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 137 (183853)
02-08-2005 1:07 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Silent H
02-07-2005 5:20 PM


Re: Reasons
quote:
They are both primarily morals laws.
Bullshit! You have no idea what you're talking about. This is the most stupid comment I've ever heard anyone make on this forum, by far!

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2005 5:20 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Silent H, posted 02-08-2005 7:14 AM berberry has replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 137 (183854)
02-08-2005 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Lizard Breath
02-07-2005 5:26 PM


Re: Reasons
Lizard Breath doesn't understand either, since he asks:
quote:
In other words, was what MJ did really child molestation, or was it a more progressive form of consenting sex?
Given that the kid was 12, then yes, if MJ really did have sex with him then it was child molestation. That's why he's on trial. You should pay more attention to what's going on, LB.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 5:26 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 86 of 137 (183858)
02-08-2005 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Lizard Breath
02-07-2005 5:26 PM


Difference
So what is the difference between talking about sex at a young age and having sex at a young age?
You are actually asking this question seriously?
If I discuss sex with my kids is that the same as having sex with them? You might have a tiny point if the discussion was something like cyber-sex type discussions. However, that is not what goes on in schools.
What utter nonsense!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 5:26 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 87 of 137 (183861)
02-08-2005 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Lizard Breath
02-07-2005 5:26 PM


Re: Reasons
LizardBreath writes:
Can they prove that harm was done to the children other than claimed mental issues?
It is well documented that of the thousands of prostitutes in the U.S., both male and female, the vast majority engaged in sex with an older (much older) adult at a young age.
In many cases, the sex was "consensual" yet a 9 year old does not know how to give consent. The bottem line? YES, harm is usually if not always done!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Lizard Breath, posted 02-07-2005 5:26 PM Lizard Breath has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by berberry, posted 02-08-2005 2:25 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 90 by Silent H, posted 02-08-2005 7:17 AM Phat has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 88 of 137 (183865)
02-08-2005 2:25 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
02-08-2005 1:58 AM


Re: Reasons
Phatboy writes:
quote:
YES, harm is usually if not always done!
I agree, especially with kids of only 12 or 13. Once a kid gets to 15 or 16 it might be a bit different, and that's why most states (at least I think) set the age of consent at 16. Thinking back on my own youth, I believe that probably by 15 I could have handled a relationship with an adult without being damaged.
I mentioned the La Tourneau case earlier as one where the kid was apparently not damaged, but we can't really be sure even about him. Sometimes the mental damage isn't apparent until later in life. That's why I think it makes sense for the law to regard any adult-child sex when the kid is under a certain age as being rape.
When I said I agreed with holmes, it was strictly on the point I thought he was trying to make that it's ridiculous to assume that in each and every case of adult-child sex, even if the kid is only 12 or 13, that damage is done. Where he and I disagree (at least as I see it) is that I don't think there's any reliable way to assess the extent of potential damage to a young kid, while he seems to feel that there is. Thus, I believe that for practical reasons the legal age of consent should be the same in all cases, while I think holmes would say that each case should be assessed individually.

Keep America Safe AND Free!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 02-08-2005 1:58 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Silent H, posted 02-08-2005 7:36 AM berberry has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 89 of 137 (183885)
02-08-2005 7:14 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by berberry
02-08-2005 1:07 AM


Re: Reasons
Bullshit! You have no idea what you're talking about. This is the most stupid comment I've ever heard anyone make on this forum, by far!
Well if mine was, you just topped it.
They are both primarily morals laws. Here I will set out why, then you can counter with all the evidence you have...
Age of consent is an arbitrary concept which was not even a universally accepted legal tool until it rose in association with efforts to end child prostitution, not harm to children because sex harmed them. If you did not know this start reading some history on aoc laws.
The only other restriction which was used as AOC, though now AOC is being used in its place is the fact that fornication laws existed and marriage laws demanded a certain age. Again these were morally based laws. They did not say there was harm outside of moral harm... one should be married and one should listen to one's parents.
While many people believed that underage sex was morally harmful which might lead to other negative effects... which was exactly the same for fornication, masturbation and homosexuality... this was not a unified belief (especially worldwide), nor based on evidenciary conclusions of harm.
Indeed it was fornication which was a more serious concern, which is evidenced by the wide variety of low aocs as long as one was married. Children were generally viewed as trying to get into sex and needed to be prevented from it, than innocent beings that did not want it or would be scarred from it inherently.
Thus we can see that this was and remains primarily a morals based law. It is not backed by evidence of harm to create the laws, beyond social defined harms, and they vary greatly according to society.
That is nearly identical to laws against homosexuality, which I might point out are more uniform across the globe than age sex laws ever were.
Now this is very simple to refute... You show me how aocs were created, based on some evidence of nonmoral harm (besides rape cases which kids would be covered under anyway).
And before this goes running away into left field, let me say I think there are some justifications for morals laws because of a difference so far unmentioned (though their implementation would be different than we see in the US at this point in time). Thus I admit it is a morals law, yet will defend them up to a point.
You could try and argue that there would be a reason to prevent kids from having sex using the original aoc arguments, preventing white slavery, which is the only reason being used right now to prevent child porn (if you don't believe me look at the last SC decision on a portion of the child porn laws). But that is different than saying we are talking about something other than primarily a morals law.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by berberry, posted 02-08-2005 1:07 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by berberry, posted 02-08-2005 1:46 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 90 of 137 (183886)
02-08-2005 7:17 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Phat
02-08-2005 1:58 AM


Re: Reasons
The bottem line? YES, harm is usually if not always done!
Great! I enthusiastically await your providing evidence in the pertinent thread. It was started a month or so ago and is still available in the Coffee House.
If you have no evidence to present, please admit so.
If you have evidence to present, please make it your best case.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
"...don't believe I'm taken in by stories I have heard, I just read the Daily News and swear by every word.."(Steely Dan)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Phat, posted 02-08-2005 1:58 AM Phat has not replied

  
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