Harm in Homosexuality?

The thing is so what if god created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve? God created horses not cars and I don't hear anyone complaining about it.In fact, Genesis 1: 29 And god said, "behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food."Does that mean that every christian that have ever eaten meat are going to hell?The argument itself doesn't make sense. Why would something be not ok simply because it wasn't mentioned in the bible? It's like saying it is immoral to do sky diving because god never mentioned it in the bible. Does it make any sense to you or anyone at all? Why would the absence of god mentioning Adam and Steve any different than sky diving?

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Hate world.Revenge soon!

To me, no. To others it obviously means something since I hear the damn quote about "adam and steve" all the time.It's true that homosexual sex cannot produce offspring (at least in humans, hermaproditic species have homomosexual sex all the time since they are having homosexual sex with another hermaprodite). So we weren't "created" to be gay in that sense (though I think an argument can be made that homosexuals in a population can be evolutionarily advantagious).But just becase homosexual sex cannot produce offspring does this mean that it is wrong? If so is it wrong for an infertile couple to have sex?There are (at least) 3 types argumnets made against homosexual behavior.1) It is wrong because it is unatural: Well why does this make it wrong? Is it even unatural if people are born gay? What relevance does natruralness have to right and wrong?2) It is wrong becase it will make more people gay/harm the children: To say that more people will do something if we endorse it is not an argumnet as to why it is wrong. Again where is the harm? So what! The whole world turns gay, why would that be bad? And let me head off the stupid "we will become extinct" with those two magic words "artificial inseminiation."3) It is wrong becase God says it is wrong: Ok, I don't think thats true, but WHY do you think he decreed it to be wrong? God must have a reason for doing so what is it? Was it a completely arbitrary decree? Maybe God has a perfectly valid reason but refuses to tell us what it is. Is that actualy what you are saying? That seems like an awfully weak argument to me.Funimentalists, mainstream christians, and anyone who thinks homosexuality is "just wrong" I am looking in your direction does anyone want to take a stab at this? (edited for grammar)This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 11-14-2004 07:29 PMThis message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 11-14-2004 07:31 PM

I believe that the issue goes back to the grand design that the Bible sets forth in Genesis. It seems that the original grand design was that everything was created male and female and the commission was to be fruitful and multiply. From the rest of the text which tracks thousands of years in time, the commision doesn't seem to have changed. Species were created male and female for the purpose of reproduction. So the author of the Bible expects this natural law to be followed. Any other example that can be gleaned from nature is proof of a corrupt and fallen world from a Biblical perspective.The Bible's view of any other sexual arangement is viewed as a corruption of the grand design and an attack on the intentions of the Creator just as much as the original fall in the garden. The Creator sets the rules as the Creator sees fit.(Because it's the Creator's creation, not the creation's creation) When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit to gain self awareness, that became the gateway action to sin and death. Re-writing the pairing makeup is a gateway action to modifying the creation rules which is not man's priviliage which is why it is condemed.Homosexual activity cannot reproduce, it can only recruit to procreate. Even though homosexual desires are not a choice since nobody would willingly choose that, it is viewed by the Bible to be a result of the corruption of this world just like any other vise. So it is taken seriously as something to be avoided just like the Bible instructs people to avoid many other entrapments of a fallen world. Homosexual temptations to one person is like alcohol temptations to an alcoholic. There is no denying that the temptation is there and the Accuser is more familiar with each human's weakness and makeup than the actual individual is. So if you were the accuser, why waste time tempting everyone with alcohol when that only works on a small percentage? Better to tempt each individual with what will most likely make them fall. So everyone is tempted in their own unique script, custom designed to due maximun damage. Everyone is in a fallen state because of the garden fall by Adam and Eve, but not everyone is going to respond the same to every temptation since we are all unique as a creation. The results are manefest UNIQUE to the INDIVIDUAL. So being tempted by homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible, that's just the accuser being efficient at attacking you. Caving in and acting on it is when it becomes wrong in the Bible's economy.According to the Bible though, Homosexuality is perticularly powerful in that it is a gateway sin to many others. You know what the scriptures of the Bible claim happens to someone who acts on the temptation. But it is not a sin for being tempted by a particular desire, only when the temptation is acted on.So does the Bible ever say that if one man takes another man's penis in his mouth for pleasure that his brain will melt or he will get stomach cancer? No, so there are no imediate tangible results from the act itself. But it does again point out that it goes against the grand design and claims that it leads to a host of other sins which is why it is delt with in the manner recorded in the scritpures.This message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-14-2004 08:58 PMThis message has been edited by Lizard Breath, 11-14-2004 09:00 PM

Cranky Lam... Arggg!!! If you don't specifically quote the bible verses in this thread, I curse thee to go to hell.I hate it when people take backdoor stabs at things. People keep saying "the bible is against homosexuality blah blah blah" but they remain quiet when asked for specific verses. Either post your specific biblical verses in that thread or retract your claim, get on your knees, and beg people like me for forgiveness.Added by edit.Actually, if you keep taking the backdoor stabs, I'm going to do the same thing. Here is my claim. The bible specifically says that people like you must be my slaves. I won't quote the specific verses for that, but it's in there. So buy a plane ticket and get over here to be my slave if you want to not go to hell after you die.This message has been edited by Lam, 11-14-2004 09:13 PM

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Hate world.Revenge soon!

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So buy a plane ticket and get over here to be my slave if you want to not go to hell after you die.

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I'll come over to where ever you supposedly are but I doubt if it will be in the capacity of your slave.

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If you don't specifically quote the bible verses in this thread, I curse thee to go to hell.

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The initiator of this thread and most of the active posters in it are well aware of the verses in the Bible that I refer to and the instructions in the initial opener were not to include pages of Biblical scripture. If you have issue with backdoor stabs then take it up with the initiator of this thread. Otherwise, change your MC from Lam to Lame.

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Either post your specific biblical verses in that thread or retract your claim, get on your knees, and beg people like me for forgiveness.

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Make me.

Ok, so now we know that you are an unreasonable and irrational person. You make bigoted claims without anything solid to back them up. We can also draw the conclusion that your sense of morality is extremely unstable because they didn't come from human reason and they certainly didn't come from the bible.

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Hate world.Revenge soon!

Listen - you gave us your theology that makes being gay a sin - the Gospel according to Chump, but as Lam says, you haven't backed it up. The bible doesn't say any of those things about gay people being a result of the fall. WE ALL are a result - so picking on them gets you no points with JC, as you're still judging them.You can't post the bible verses as requested by Lam - because they don't exist.So if you let a woman orallt attend your appendage - you've sinned against bibleGod - and used your penis for wrongful purposes. It wasn't made to be sucked.So Lam is lame if he listens to you that's for sure, - cos "wrongful" use would apply to a majority of straight people.This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 11-15-2004 08:08 AM

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The cause of the temptation is irrelivant, actions are right or wrong depending on the circumstances and the individuals harmed, not the source of the desire.

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Pedophilic sex is NESSESARALY wrong because children are inevitably harmed by it. Even a "consenting" child should not be allowed to have sex with an adult because of the gross harm that would be done to the child.

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If the actions of the individual are determined by the genetic makeup, then nothing is wrong with any of the actions. It's just the kinetic manifestation of the electro-chemical reaction happening inside the brain. The electro-chemical reaction has no right or wrong litmus test that is used before an act is carried out. It has no moral code to filter itself through. The genetic arrangement of the neuro network in the brain forces the individual to persue pedophilia behavior, just as homosexual networks due in other's.How can a ball falling from the sky be morally wrong? How can lightning hitting the ground be wrong? How can a tidal wave slamming into the coast be wrong? They are not even if they produce damage to someone or something. So neither can pedophilia be wrong if it is based on genetic makeup. Morality becomes irrelevant because everyone's morality is going to be different from everyone else's. You can always excuse your own behavior with an excuse while accusing someone else of a similiar behavior because their circumstances were not the same as yours.So in my perspective, argueing homosexuality from a moral perspective is pointless unless everyone on the planet can agree on the same set of morals, which is impossible. You either go off of a moral standard revealed by a being outside of our space/time dimension or you reject the concept of moral - right/wrong as ambiguous and subjective.Some say killing is right, some say it's wrong, some say it's wrong all the time, some say it's right in certain circumstances, some say it's good as capital punishment, some say capital punishment is murder.

You're trying to start an arguement with me over something that you said, not me. If you have a problem with who you are, then go change yourself, if you can, You'll find that no one can change themselves. So in like manner I am not picking on Gays. The originator said he wanted to know why homosexual behavior was wrong according to the Bible without scriptures being quoted page after page, so I gave a brief synopsis of what the theme of the subject reads in the Bible.As far as a woman sucking my cock as being wrong, think again. The Bible says that the bed is undefiled between a husband and a wife so in my scale of economy that gives me great lattitude as to what we can and cannot due with each other in bed under the umbrella of one man and one woman in legal holy marriage.If you can find anything in my post where I personally am "picking" on homosexuals, then quote it first and then respond. Otherwise, go pick a fight with one of the "better than you" zeolots on this board. You'll find that I place myself no higher or lower than anyone else hear reguardless of their particular story.

Actually I think you need to "think again", wasting sperm is punishable by death: Others have used this passage as Biblical proof that oral, anal, or any non-vaginal sex act is a sin against God.LB, if you are interested in talking about the Bible in reference to homosexuality, why not join the Bible and Homosexuality discussion, rather than posting in this intentionally Bible-free thread.I'd be interested to see what anti-homosexual verses you have to offer.

Thanks for the lovely memory, sassy.

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Dog is my copilot.

Lizard breath responds to me: So earthworms, and snails, and bacteria, and all other hermaproditic or asexualy reproducing species became so after the fall? So, by this logic, an infertile heterosexual couple should not have sex? Alcoholisum has a genetic perdispositon AND it is wrong. Why? Because it is harmful! You still have not shown why homosexuality is harmful. You have only argued that it is somhow unnatural, who gets hurt when people are gay and allowed to marry, adopt, have sex, etc. Why is it wrong? No one has answerd this question yet. The only argument is that it is somehow unnatural. Why are unnatural things wrong? Driving a car is unnatural why isn't that wrong? What are your criteria for deturmining whether things are natural or not? Well I don't agree. But even if this were true that makes the "many other" sins wrong but does not make homosexuality wrong. Hmmm, so if you say there are no immediate tangable results does this mean you think there will be tangible results later from going against this "grand scheme"? If so, what are they and where is your evedence.

The tidal wave smashing into the shore IS wrong if it causes harm to people. If the tidal wave had made the choice to harm people we would say that that was wrong. Tidal waves, however, and other inorganic things cannot make choices. People can. A belief in genetic predisposition is not a beleif in deturminisum. You are claming that Homosexuality is somehow harmful, please explain the harm. We may not be able to agree on the same set of morals but we can agree on what the moraly relevant traits of an action are. Most appeals to morality are an appeal to sympathy. Why is it wrong to hurt others, becase you would not want to be hurt. Who gets hurt by homosexuality? Well we might not agree on which path to take. But we all agree that killing is regretable, if sometimes nessesary. It may or may not be wrong to kill in any given circumstance, but if it were possible to acheve the same results without killing wouldnt that be the RIGHT choice?Why is it the right choice to harm homosexuals, either the way they did in the old testiment (deplorable) or the way we do today (slightly less deplorable) by not allowing them to marry etc ? Where is the harm? If you can't find it fast then it means the only reason you deny gays rights is because you are made uncomfortable by homosexuality.This message has been edited by The Dread Dormammu, 11-14-2004 11:56 PM

Perhaps we are looking at this problem in the wrong way: Apparently an antihomosexual society is harmful, since it applies psychological pressures so great that they result in depression and suicide. Additionally, an antihomosexual society does not provide services to homosexuals who need them, exacerbating the problem.Thus the harm is not in homosexuality, but in homophobia.

Absoulutely.