Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,819 Year: 3,076/9,624 Month: 921/1,588 Week: 104/223 Day: 2/13 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Innocents in Hell, Guilty in Heaven?
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 16 of 59 (69244)
11-25-2003 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by apostolos
11-25-2003 2:56 PM


Danger! Danger!
quote:
I have known other christians to present their case antagonistically on this site, and I have known the rebutters to do the very same. That is what I am trying to avoid.
Adminnemooseus has just flagged you as having heavy moderator potential!
Now, back to our regularly scheduled topic.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 2:56 PM apostolos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 6:57 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

  
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 59 (69266)
11-25-2003 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Adminnemooseus
11-25-2003 3:45 PM


Re: Danger! Danger!
I am replying to the admin's post only because I am unaware of how to post without making it a reply. But since I did let me make a statement. I formally and vehemently denounce and reject any of the conclusions preceeding this post (specifically those in #16). Although I must admit this stems from a paranoia of pointy haired people.
Ok, time to get serious.
Is God playing favorites?
No. Romans 2:11 says "For there is no respect of persons with God." That means that God never respects one person over another, or plays favorites. However, God, being the Creator of all existence and the only omnipotent and omniscient One, is able to act in ways that I, a created being, do not understand, nor can I explain. Please note that I dealt with this quote first rather than last to specifically avoid the idea that I am washing away reason with "only God knows". However, it is a fact and a statement of scripture:
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than
your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9
Now lets jump right into it, having set the perspective.
But how is a person who has never heard of Christ supposed to know about his sacrfice on the cross? How are they supposed to know about original sin in the first place?
There is a common assumption that unless some person of European descent goes to a foreign country with a Bible in hand, that country is "without hope" from a Christian perspective. Let me begin by assuring you the Bible never suggests at any such idea. Instead, it states repeatedly that God has been revealing Himself to mankind since the beginning of creation. Since I asked for the limitation to Romans 1:16-32, I will keep my comments within that passage.
I am not going to quote the whole passage, but I do want to start by hitting on a few points. Verse 19 states:
"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God
hath shewed it unto them."
This verse shows that God is fully able to inform diverse people groups about Himself. So it understood that this is referencing all people and not one specific group, let me say that there are many other passages in the Bible which state the same basic truth. While I am prepared to make comments on some of them, the ones I have in mind do not fall in our established context, so I will withhold them for now. The verse Dan alluded to shows the method that is used to establish a foundation in the mind of a person for the existence and authority of God. To be thorough, let me say that the eternal power and Godhead of God are truths evident from the creation that surround us as humans every day and it is that constant exposure to God’s revealing himself that lays the groundwork for any portion of His word to be received.
Now as to the question of how much these people knew, let me reference again the verse you brought up. It says this revelation of God is clearly seen, being understood. Furthermore, verse 21 says they knew God. I will make an example by illustration, but understand the illustration will ultimately break down at some point. If God were to write letters in the sky over Mexico in warning, but wrote them in Arabic, the message would be clearly seen, but not understood. So my point is that this verse states that the revelation is both clearly seen and understood. This is where the discrepancy enters.
If God is so omnipotent that He can reveal Himself in such an absolute way to people, why is the entire world not Christian? The answer is human choice. Certainly God did not have to give people a choice and could force their behavior, but that would violate God’s righteousness. Instead God allows humanity to make its own decisions on an individual basis. This choice is either to respond to the revelation of God by Himself, or to reject it and Him. So in short, the whole world could be Christian but, largely, it chooses not to be. Let me give Matthew 7:13-14 as a supporting text but refrain from commenting on it at this time.
Even if we assume that the invisibles things could help a person reach salvation through Christ if they looked hard enough,
I have left off part of this sentence because I dealt with it earlier. The question raised here is can invisible things lead a person to knowledge of Christ? The answer is an absolute yes. I can say this with authority because the pinnacle of God’s act of revealing Himself to mankind took place when He came to the earth as Jesus Christ. I am not stretching outside of context on this point. Verse 16 declares the gospel of Christ to be the power of God unto salvation, and verse 17 says that therein is the righteousness of God revealed. So my point here is to say that ultimate destination on the path of revelation that God leads each human along is the knowledge of Himself, Jesus Christ. However, much like any other road that exists, there are some wrong turns along the way.
Without stretching this into a long-winded post (and I realize I may be too late now) let me say that there is a clear pattern repeated in all of scripture. That pattern is that God presents Himself to mankind and they choose to either accept or reject Him. The only time God presents further revealed truth about Himself is when there has been a previous acceptance of the truth given. By brief example let me say that Christ came to the Jews in the gospels and he did not minister to any gentiles, except those who demonstrated an established belief in God to some degree and a desire to know more. Please lets not get off on how Christ behaved among the Jews at that time in regard to God’s revelation because it is slightly different. To say anymore would be to stray off topic.
On a closing note I want to call attention to verses 19-22. With the statements of Romans 1 thus far, and the rest of scripture, it is established that God reveals Himself to mankind by verse 19. In that verse it begins dealing with a specific group of people, namely any person rejecting God. The beginning of this is God’s clear revelation of Himself to that person. Again note the word known. The action that follows this, in v20 & 21, is the declaration of their own awareness of God. I want to point out two statements quickly. Without excuse, in verse 20, would certainly be an unfair statement from God unless they were in fact without one. This is established in the fact that they know God and reject Him. Also verse 21, beginning with because shows the action that is their response to be nothing else but rejection and rebellion against the God that created them. This is continued in verse 22 and 23 as they cease from mere rejection of God and turn to establishing other gods in various forms (themselves, humanoids, animals, etc.). Verse 24 is where God responds to their rejection of Him and allows them to go their own way. The end result of this person who has turned from God is seen in verses 24-32 to be not very good.
Now I am going to close with a simple answer. I am afraid it may cause more confusion but even I am getting a little nervous about the length of this post. The deal is that God's first desire is to reveal Himself to humanity and that desire of His far exceeds any level of desire we could ever have for anything. The way that God reveals himself to man is of such nature that we must accept what He reveals to us before He reveals more. The ultimate end of that revelation is Jesus Christ. Whenever a person responds to the truth God provides for them, He is always faithful to provide more. Again, this truth is stated in this passage as well as many others in the Bible. The converse to this statement seems to be also true. When a person rejects God, He only allows them to go so far before He gives them up.
My hope is that I have been clear (if not just ask) and that I have provided an adequate base of scripture to start this discussion from. If some part of my statement has been unclear please let me know so I can make adjustments (of a much shorter nature).
Russ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Adminnemooseus, posted 11-25-2003 3:45 PM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Dan Carroll, posted 11-25-2003 10:17 PM apostolos has not replied
 Message 23 by IrishRockhound, posted 11-26-2003 8:44 AM apostolos has not replied
 Message 27 by Amlodhi, posted 11-28-2003 1:15 PM apostolos has not replied
 Message 28 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-01-2003 9:43 AM apostolos has replied
 Message 34 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-03-2003 10:00 AM apostolos has not replied

  
grace2u
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 59 (69274)
11-25-2003 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Rei
11-25-2003 1:57 PM


Re: what I meant
I think that Russ is going to present the facts in as articulate manner as any Christian would. I will also throw in my thoughts...
First, this is by far one of the largest stumbling blocks for most thinking Christians. Your questions are certainly valid and should be answered.
I will point out a couple things first,
1) Do you not find it strange that you have A SENSE OF JUSTICE- demonstrated by the very posing of this question(namely, how could God judge someone who (as you would probably say) never has a chance of being introduced to Christ. I am curious where you think that sense of Justice comes from? Is it binding on how we should look at the world? If not, why does it matter that YOU THINK it is unjust for a God to do this. I as some of you probably know attribute this universal sense of justice to be evidence of God in and of itself. Namely, within atheism, the lack of justice is not a problem, since who are we to know what the standard of justice is-absolute and invariant justice does not exist within atheism. Note, I am not contending that atheists don't have a sense of justice-obviously they do. I AM suggesting however, that when you pose this very question, you are presupposing the Chrisitian worldview. That is, you are borrowing these non-material concepts from another world view. These universal invariant etities exist, however atheism can not account for them in any rational manner.
2) The very existence of such metaphysical entities is further proof for the existence of the Christian God. I am talking about justice now. In other posts I have labored quite extensively the existence of morality along the same lines as well as the laws of logic(reason) being evidence for Gods existence. So in other words, since the existence of these things can not be accounted for within the confines of atheism, atheism is an improbable(even irrational) philisophical system. So, given the impossibility of the contrary, God must exist.
3) So if you grant that a God exists (and I'm sure you won't but for arguments sake, assume there is one), and it is demonstrated that more than likely, that God is the Christian God with characteristics proposed via revealed theology, then this God is by definition the standard of justice.
4) So if you grant an all just and all moral God exists(evidenced by the very posing of your questions-- namely you are presupposing the Christian worldview, in that you are assuming absolute truths and justice exist), then you would trust that His decisions are righteous and just, for in doing anything to the contrary, He would be behaving contrary to His nature. He can not do this since He would then be lying. We are finite beings and God is infinite. IT IS NOT UNREASONABLE TO CONCLUDE THAT WE DO NOT HAVE ALL THE FACTS (btw, I'm not shouting just trying to get the important point clear-we all tend to not read other posts carefully). Again, it is not an unreasonable statement to say that in light of all the evidence proving the existance of the Christian God, we can say we do not know all the facts concerning these types of questions.
5) So the rational is as follows, God must exist. This God must be moral and just and logical, else the world would be irrational and illogical. This God says that I am but a finite creature and that His ways are not my own(Not unreasonable since He is infinite I am finitite, I can approach this God but never truly reach Him). Since I know that God is moral,just and logical, I can trust that His decisions are such(even though it might seem that they are not at times to finite beings).
6) By this I mean to imply many things.... One of which is that we can rest assure that God is just and righteous in the decisions He makes. I could produce any number of ways that God could deal with this alleged problem. Both are valid explanations-but looked at from two different theologies.
This is probably how most Christians deal with the issue:
1) Christians deal with this alleged problem in many ways(btw, I'm looking forward to see how Russ deals with it). I believe it is in Luke somewhere where God indicates that He has placed everyone in the place they are in(africa,USA,4000BC,etc) by His will.
-- Perhaps these people would never have accepted Christ even if they were in the USA.
--Why should anyone assume that this theological question is reason enough to conclude that God is immoral or unjust if he even does exist? There is just as much reason to assume that these people never would have accepted Christ had they been preachers kids.
--The very posing of the question demonstrates that this God must exist. So it is certainly possible that God allowed someone to be born in Africa, or in 4000BC or wherever because they would have never accepted Christ anyway.
If you don't like that one, here is another(this is more along the lines of how I personally deal with this issue-from a reformed(semi- Calvinist) perspective)
2)
--God is soveriegn and holy,righteous,etc.
--Man is depraved and deserves eternal seperation from God(hell). Upon examination of all of our own hearts, we would more than likely see that we are primarily guided by our own selfish desires.
--God is merciful in that He has provided a way to secure mankind from this wicked state man finds himself in.
--God has demonstrated that grace to all. If left to their own devices, man will reject this truth.
--God has secured some from this damnation and holds them in His grace.
--These "elect" are incapable of pulling themselves out of His hands, even though they would rather if given a choice.
Now, these are two ends of the extreme, the reformed(Calvinist) and the Armenian. The truth is somewhere contained within this spectrum. Both theologies can fit within the pale of Christianity.
It is my humble opinion that we should not speculate on those that seem beyond hope, rather we should examine our own hearts and make decisions from our experience and trust the lost to our all knowing God.
Even still, I have provided two reasonable explanations that could be true. I lean towards the reformed-Calvinistic, but would certainly allow for the first as well.
So in the end, without God, this discussion is impossible. No concepts of morality, justice, logic/reason would exist.
I might be a little slow to replies but will attempt to reach them all-busy time for me now.
"Christe eleison"
[This message has been edited by grace2u, 11-25-2003]
[This message has been edited by grace2u, 11-25-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Rei, posted 11-25-2003 1:57 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-25-2003 8:36 PM grace2u has not replied
 Message 24 by Rei, posted 11-26-2003 12:13 PM grace2u has not replied

  
Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 59 (69285)
11-25-2003 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by grace2u
11-25-2003 7:54 PM


Re: what I meant
We get our Sense of Justice through experience and what we are told. If a kid in some remote tribe is told that it is right to murder people and he sees people murdering without remorse his Sense of Justice will say that murder is a moral and just thing to do. So where is the god imposed justice? If god gives out the exact same moral code to everyone then why doesn’t everyone have the exact same Sense of Justice?
Also why would god contradict his own moral code? He says that we shall not murder yet he kills millions of people when he floods the world. And why do we need a Christian god to have a sense of justice? Why couldn't the Zeus or a pink unicorn from Mars impose a Sense of Justice
You are assuming that justice is impossible without a god, but how can you even come close to backing this up? The Bible? The Koran? Both of which are hardly unbiased, not to mention based on events that supposedly happened thousands of years ago. The fact that people have a code of justice that they tend to follow is hardly proof for a god.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by grace2u, posted 11-25-2003 7:54 PM grace2u has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 59 (69319)
11-25-2003 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by apostolos
11-25-2003 6:57 PM


Re: Danger! Danger!
Russ:
As I told you earlier, you clearly put a lot of thought into your post. I plan to do you the same courtesy, but my schedule for the next few days may mean that my post won't come until Friday or Saturday. Not meaning to slight, just to put the same effort into my own post that you put into yours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 6:57 PM apostolos has not replied

  
White Robes
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 59 (69331)
11-25-2003 11:03 PM


Has anyone answered the original two questions especially the first one of the man who started all of this topic? If not than I can so kindly give you the truth as I know it to this situation in which you present us with that makes my God look like a cruel God and a mean unfair, favoring God.

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by apostolos, posted 11-26-2003 8:24 AM White Robes has not replied

  
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 59 (69358)
11-26-2003 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by White Robes
11-25-2003 11:03 PM


current status
white robes,
Concerning the two points raised in post #1, if you will review the thread, you will see that the second was answered adequately enough in post #10 (unless someone raises an additional question). The first point made in post #1 is beginning to be dealt with. My suggestion would be this: since I have made a lengthy post on the matter from a biblical perspective already, I think it is only fair to wait for someone from the opposing side to make some kind of response or comment. Please do not take this as a disinterest in your point. I just want to encourage orderliness in this discussion.
Dan,
I appreciate your desire to be thorough in this matter and look forward to anything you have to put forth. Hope you have (had?) a nice Thanksgiving.
Russ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by White Robes, posted 11-25-2003 11:03 PM White Robes has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 23 of 59 (69361)
11-26-2003 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by apostolos
11-25-2003 6:57 PM


Re: Danger! Danger!
quote:
If God is so omnipotent that He can reveal Himself in such an absolute way to people, why is the entire world not Christian? The answer is human choice. Certainly God did not have to give people a choice and could force their behavior, but that would violate God’s righteousness. Instead God allows humanity to make its own decisions on an individual basis. This choice is either to respond to the revelation of God by Himself, or to reject it and Him. So in short, the whole world could be Christian but, largely, it chooses not to be.
Russ, I'm curious; would you say that people all over the world have had revalatory experiences that lead them to conclude the existance of a god or gods, but that by default that god is actually the Christian one? I've been trying to understand your post and that is what it seems to be saying. As for this small quote here that caught my eye... I feel that it is unfair. Those who have never heard of Christianity obviously cannot choose to reject it. Why should they put a Christian slant on their interpretation of god if they do not know they should? In my mind at least the Christian god is not all that special except to his believers. I think that the bible is simply another layer of fluff separating people from the truth.
Or, I could just be talking crap.
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 6:57 PM apostolos has not replied

  
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 24 of 59 (69415)
11-26-2003 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by grace2u
11-25-2003 7:54 PM


Re: what I meant
quote:
1) Do you not find it strange that you have A SENSE OF JUSTICE- demonstrated by the very posing of this question(namely, how could God judge someone who (as you would probably say) never has a chance of being introduced to Christ.
Grace, didn't we already have this discussion? Social norms, such as standards of justice, are memes and are selected by memetic selection.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by grace2u, posted 11-25-2003 7:54 PM grace2u has not replied

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 25 of 59 (69524)
11-27-2003 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
11-25-2003 12:24 PM


quote:
They can say that they repent as much as they want but unless they truly believe in thier hearts that Jesus died for their sins then they ain't going anywhere except the big burny fire.
This may not be the place for it, but I'll bring something up I think I brought up way back in the Yahoo days.
quote:
...unless they truly believe in thier hearts that Jesus died for their sins...
Is it possible for any rational person to have absolute true belief? I would think that even the "most Christian" of the members here, would have to admit to at least some small amount of "doubt in their hearts".
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Brian, posted 11-25-2003 12:24 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Brian, posted 11-27-2003 6:59 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 26 of 59 (69560)
11-27-2003 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Minnemooseus
11-27-2003 12:52 AM


Hi,
Is it possible for any rational person to have absolute true belief?
You are assuming that 'Christians' are rational, I think that once a person goes through this 'spiritual rebirth' they are no longer rational when it come to their faith. I could cite many examples of this but one should do. Taking Wise as an example, does he strike you as rational?
Many Christians approach everything in their lives rationally until it comes to their faith. I don't think that some Christians approach certain things, such as Ron Wyatt's claims with anything near a rational approach.
I would think that even the "most Christian" of the members here, would have to admit to at least some small amount of "doubt in their hearts".
I would be very surprised if they did. I can only comment on the Christians that I have had dealings with and they ALL reassure me that they have no doubts whatsoever. Although what they say they believe and what they do believe may be two different things.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-27-2003 12:52 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 59 (69714)
11-28-2003 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by apostolos
11-25-2003 6:57 PM


Assertion vs. demographics
Hello apostolos,
quote:
Originally posted by apostolos
If God is so omnipotent that He can reveal Himself in such an absolute way to people, why is the entire world not Christian? The answer is human choice.
However, for this concept to stand, one is forced into rationalization in order to explain why religious demographics are so unevenly distributed.
History and contemporary observation support the fact that the overwhelmingly greater percentages of people making a choice "for God" live in areas of heavy proselytization. Further, if the identification of "God" is limited to Yahweh or Yeshua, the demographic contrast approaches infinity.
Namaste'
Amlodhi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 6:57 PM apostolos has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 59 (70243)
12-01-2003 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by apostolos
11-25-2003 6:57 PM


Re: Danger! Danger!
Russ:
I've just today gotten back to the internet. A reply is forthcoming, honest.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by apostolos, posted 11-25-2003 6:57 PM apostolos has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by apostolos, posted 12-01-2003 11:46 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
apostolos
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 59 (70263)
12-01-2003 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Dan Carroll
12-01-2003 9:43 AM


hope you had a good thanksgiving
Dan,
Take your time. I would rather have a thought out response than a rushed one. I had been thinking about the replies before yours but wanted to wait until I at least heard from you before making a response.
Again, look forward to hearing what you have to say.
Russ

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-01-2003 9:43 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
Lizard Breath
Member (Idle past 6696 days)
Posts: 376
Joined: 10-19-2003


Message 30 of 59 (70468)
12-01-2003 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rei
11-24-2003 8:32 PM


Good debate
I've asked a number of pastors this question and I haven't received a satifactory answer to this one yet. Of the deathbed conversion issue though, that issue Jesus settled himself.
Jesus made 7 statements from the cross while he was being crucified. Before he made any of them the Bible says that the crowd gathered was hurling insults at him and even both theives on either side were doing likewise. The first statement Jesus gave was "Father forgive them for they know not what they do". Of all of the people who had lived on the Earth who had the right to fire back an accusing remark to the crowd after he had probably healed some of them and fed others, he didn't fire an accusing anything. So atleast for the act of crucifying the son of god himself, Jesus wasn't in condemnation of man.
One of the thieves watching this was cut right to the very core of his sole when he heard this. You see an instant transformation of him on the cross. In front of the crowd who he was trying to be tough for, in front of his peers, and in front of his partner. So he says Jesus remember me when you come into your kingdom. He met the 2 criteria for salvation. Confess with your mouth, which he did as recorded, and believe in your heart which he did and what allowed him to confess. So Jesus's second statement was "This day you will be with me in paradise". According to the Bible, that's what God wants. It isn't recorded what this thief did with the rest of his 6 hour life before they broke his legs, but he didn't have much time to act on his new faith.
Many people have received far more theology than what that thief did but will never act on it and no matter how good of people they are, the Bible still catagorizes them as going the way of the world. By what the Bible teaches, there's going to be a lot of very nice people in Hell, which explains the weeping by some and the gnashing of teeth by others. I know that if I lived a Mother Theresa type of beautiful life and then found myself in Hell because I rejected Jesus but tried to get there on my own, I'd be mad as hell to.
I'm not at all sure though what's going to happen to the naked Yamamato Indians of South America who died without the Gospel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rei, posted 11-24-2003 8:32 PM Rei has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Rrhain, posted 12-02-2003 3:05 AM Lizard Breath has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024