Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Truth of resurrection and death of the apostles (for Willowtree)
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 1 of 92 (69657)
11-28-2003 1:01 AM


Resurrection and death of the apostles
Many times over the years I have heard the argument the one can believe the truth of the resurrection because all the apostles died a horrible martyr’s death for their belief. The argument goes, Why would they allow themselves to be killed for a lie?
The people making this argument also usually claim that the writers of the gospels were eye witnesses to the truth of the resurrection.
Recently, in this thread, http://EvC Forum: Considerations of Christ's Resurrection -->EvC Forum: Considerations of Christ's Resurrection, Willowtree made these same arguments.
The following questions were asked in the above referenced thread. The second question will be asked in a second post to facilitate answers concerning each.
Which resurrection story is the TRUE one? Each of the four gospels tells a different story.
Matthew 28 — Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James
an angel descended and rolled away the stone / sat on it
The angel talked to the two women
The women ran to tell the disciples and met Jesus on the way
Mark 16 - Mary M, Mary mother of James AND Salome stone was already rolled away
Inside was a young man
Man talked to the three women
They ran away afraid and didn’t tell anyone
Jesus then appeared to Mary M.
Then he appeared to two of the disciples
Then he appeared to the 11
Luke 24 - no names listed at the beginning
stone already rolled away
inside were two men
they told the 11
lists Mary M, Mary mother of James and Joanna and others who were there
Peter went to see for himself
Jesus appeared to two, Cleopas and another
John 20/21 - still dark
Mary M
stone already rolled away
didn't look, ran to tell Simon and the disciple that Jesus loved
They went to look and saw no one there
Mary M stayed and saw two angels
she turned and saw Jesus
told the disciples
that evening Jesus appeared to the disciples together
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:02 AM Asgara has not replied
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 11-28-2003 8:55 AM Asgara has not replied
 Message 17 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-29-2003 8:59 PM Asgara has replied
 Message 64 by Nvited2Feast, posted 03-14-2004 3:11 AM Asgara has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 2 of 92 (69658)
11-28-2003 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-28-2003 1:01 AM


Now for the second half of my question, concerning the apostles being martyred for their belief in one of the above mentioned truths.
All the stories I could find concerning this, talk of tradition or stories say; in other words hearsay.
Matthew — by tradition - either died by the sword in Ethiopia, or Persia, possibly 60ce, or was martyred in Egypt, or is unknown, or died of old age
Mark — by tradition — dragged by horses to his death in Alexandria, Egypt, possibly 68ce, or torn to pieces by a mob
Luke — by tradition — hanged in Greece between 75 and 100ce, or died of old age, or claims that no information is available
John — by tradition — survived boiling in oil, sentenced to the mines on Patmos — freed and served as Bishop in Turkey, died of old age in Ephesus 100ce or somewhere between 98 and 117ce. — his banishment was either during the reign of Nero 54 -68ce or the reign of Domitian 81 — 96ce
Peter — by tradition — crucified by Nero in either 64ce, 66ce or 67ce
Paul — by tradition — either beheaded by Nero in Rome in 64ce, 66ce, 67ce or 69ce, or torn to pieces by wild animals
James, son of Zebedee — biblical — beheaded in Jerusalem 44ce
Thomas — by tradition — speared in either India or Persia 52ce or beheaded or shot by arrows while at prayer
James — brother of Jesus — by tradition - thrown from pinnacle of the temple, survived and beat to death in either 62 or 66ce
James — son of Alphaeus — by tradition — martyred in Egypt, crucified in Syria, stoned in Jerusalem, 62 or 60ce, one source told the same story of James brother of Jesus for this James
Philip — by tradition — either died a natural death or was martyred in Hieropolis in Turkey in 52 or 54ce. Possibly flogged, imprisoned and crucified
Thaddaeus — my tradition — martyred w/ Simon in Persia or Turkey possibly Mt Ararat by either arrows, a lance, crucifixion or beaten (or a combination) 72ce
Simon the Zealot — by tradition — either crucified or hacked to death or sawn in two in either Persia, Georgia, Iberia, Samaria or Lincolnshire in either 61 or 74ce
Andrew — by tradition — was either crucified or bound to death in Asia Minor in either 74ce or on November 30, 60ce
Judas Iscariot — biblical — either hanged himself or fell and burst open 34ce
Bartholomew — by tradition — whipped to death, flayed and beheaded, beaten and crucified and beheaded, or just speared in either Armenia, Russia or India 52ce
As you can see, I found no real references for any of this information. If anyone has some historical reference for any of the reported deaths, I would be interested in reading it.
edited to add last paragraph
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato
[This message has been edited by Asgara, 11-28-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:01 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 11-28-2003 8:49 AM Asgara has not replied
 Message 6 by Trump won, posted 11-28-2003 12:57 PM Asgara has not replied
 Message 43 by keith63, posted 12-10-2003 3:37 PM Asgara has not replied

Ragnarok10
Member (Idle past 7423 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 3 of 92 (69680)
11-28-2003 5:37 AM


Hmm.. I remember reading someone (A Theist) talking about the four different accounts in the gospel once. Can't remember who it was... Anyway, your point is? I got the impression that you were solely being informative.

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:57 PM Ragnarok10 has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 4 of 92 (69688)
11-28-2003 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Asgara
11-28-2003 1:02 AM


Simon the Zealot — by tradition — either crucified or hacked to death or sawn in two in either Persia, Georgia, Iberia, Samaria or Lincolnshire in either 61 or 74ce
They left out Manitoba and Chile entirely! That's some pretty sloppy myth-making when you can get one event happening one of two ways anywhere in the then-known world. And I'm sure that there were once precise locations, with shrines, in each of those countries.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:02 AM Asgara has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 5 of 92 (69689)
11-28-2003 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-28-2003 1:01 AM


Asgara writes:
Many times over the years I have heard the argument the one can believe the truth of the resurrection because all the apostles died a horrible martyr’s death for their belief. The argument goes, Why would they allow themselves to be killed for a lie?
And, of course, by this same logic Islam is the one true religion because of the many recent martyrs who have knowingly faced and accepted death while opposing the dual threats of Christianity and Judaism.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:01 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by keith63, posted 12-08-2003 4:34 PM Percy has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 6 of 92 (69709)
11-28-2003 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Asgara
11-28-2003 1:02 AM


HI GUYS I LOVE YOU
The past few days i have realized something. I am very unpopular in school, yet when i get home and log on everything is gone [bullys people making fun of my love of ballet] everything is gone, because you no wht i figured out? i finally have people who i can realat to . I think i love you , guys i really do.Thankyou for always being there when i need you.
LOVE always,
your loving , friend,
Chris

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 1:02 AM Asgara has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Trump won, posted 11-28-2003 12:59 PM Trump won has not replied

Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 7 of 92 (69710)
11-28-2003 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Trump won
11-28-2003 12:57 PM


Re: HI GUYS I LOVE YOU
THAT WAS MY SISTER NOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Trump won, posted 11-28-2003 12:57 PM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Brian, posted 11-28-2003 1:06 PM Trump won has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 92 (69713)
11-28-2003 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Trump won
11-28-2003 12:59 PM


Re: HI GUYS I LOVE YOU
Suuuuuuure Chris we believe you
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Trump won, posted 11-28-2003 12:59 PM Trump won has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Trump won, posted 11-29-2003 4:39 PM Brian has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 9 of 92 (69716)
11-28-2003 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 5:37 AM


Actually Ragnorok, I believe I did ask some questions. I asked which of these four accounts is the True account. I also asked if anyone had any real, historic references pertaining to the deaths of the apostles.
If one proof of the truth of the resurrection is that "all the apostles died a martyr's death for their belief in the truth", then where is the information about these deaths coming from, and which truth did they die for?
It seems amazing to me that four "eyewitnesses" could tell such different stories. If I was writing an account of the most important thing that had ever happened to me, I think I could remember who told me, where and when I saw the proof, who I was with at the time.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 5:37 AM Ragnarok10 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by keith63, posted 12-09-2003 11:52 AM Asgara has not replied
 Message 68 by truthlover, posted 03-14-2004 9:40 PM Asgara has not replied

Ragnarok10
Member (Idle past 7423 days)
Posts: 14
Joined: 11-15-2003


Message 10 of 92 (69725)
11-28-2003 4:05 PM


Haha, Chris, that's hilarious.
Anyway, as I said before, I think someone mentioned (other than the topic with WillowTree's threads) about the four different accounts of Gospels. I will try to find it and post it here. Since most of apostles supposedly seemed to have been executed(according to the details you provided), we might as well believe that they faced martyrdom. Ockham's razor is the way to go! (So much for Mr. Ockham. He ended up working for us!)
Ragnarok

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Asgara, posted 11-28-2003 4:18 PM Ragnarok10 has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 11 of 92 (69726)
11-28-2003 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ragnarok10
11-28-2003 4:05 PM


Since most of apostles supposedly seemed to have been executed(according to the details you provided), we might as well believe that they faced martyrdom.
Except for a few things. Most of the "details" are contradictory, and no one I could find listed where these stories came from. In some instances one site would list some terrible death for a particular apostle, another would say no references to this person were found out of a few lines in the bible, and yet another would say the apostle died a natural death.
As for Ockham's Razor, with what I found the simplest thing to say would be "No one knows", NOT "All the apostles died a horrible martyr's death for their belief."
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Ragnarok10, posted 11-28-2003 4:05 PM Ragnarok10 has not replied

Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 5615 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 12 of 92 (69733)
11-28-2003 5:43 PM


Take your time and read these
The Bodily Resurrection of Jesus
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/jrthal.html
I know you just dont want to believe and i dont know why i bother but the existence and resurection of jesus has more evidence than your evolution. was anybody there i dont know how many billions years ago to write about human apes or flying dogs or stuff like that. what is more believeable. a theory made plainly on just observation and assumption or four different pionts of view on the events of resurection. The point your making is that even if there are four diferent versions on jesus resurection and i dont know how many on the apostles, it happened. 3000 years from now there will be a lot of different views of why the war in irak took place. i hope you understand what i mean

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Asgara, posted 11-29-2003 3:30 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 14 by PaulK, posted 11-29-2003 4:24 AM Itachi Uchiha has not replied
 Message 15 by Asgara, posted 11-29-2003 1:54 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 13 of 92 (69832)
11-29-2003 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha
11-28-2003 5:43 PM


Re: Take your time and read these
Hi Jazz,
The point your making is that even if there are four diferent versions on jesus resurection and i dont know how many on the apostles, it happened.
I don't think that is the point I was making at all.
3000 years from now there will be a lot of different views of why the war in irak took place
But, if the four major U.S. players in the war each wrote an account of the meeting where the decision to go to Iraq was made, I would expect the issues that all were privy to, to be essentially the same. If they weren't, I would believe one or more of them to be lying. I would believe that they would remember who was there, who basically said what, who agreed, who disagreed, etc.
i hope you understand what i mean
I guess I don't.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-28-2003 5:43 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 92 (69838)
11-29-2003 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha
11-28-2003 5:43 PM


Re: Take your time and read these
I had a look at both the links and they are not that good. THe first is primarily theological.
The second is just plain wrong on some important points. The most serious error is that it assumes without question that Thallus explicitly linked his eclipse to the "Darkness" of the Gospels. But the only evidence is that *Africanus* said that it was the same event. We don't know how Africanus reached this conclusion.
(Origen in "Contra Celsum" argues that the account by Phlegon referred to the miraculous darkness - but his grounds are that both occurred in the reign of Tiberius. Obviously that is not much of a link and it appears that Phlegon was referring to a genuine eclipse).
The reference to Phlegon is even more suspect. Every other record of what Phlegon wrote does not mention either the full moon nor the exact duration of the eclipse.
You might want to check out this link
Richard Carrier Thallus » Internet Infidels
By the way the idea that there is more evidence for the resurrection than for evolution is completely and utterly false.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-28-2003 5:43 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 15 of 92 (69879)
11-29-2003 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha
11-28-2003 5:43 PM


Re: Take your time and read these
Hi Jazz,
I know you just dont want to believe and i dont know why i bother but the existence and resurection of jesus has more evidence than your evolution
I would be interested in just exactly what you think this evidence is. If you could list this evidence, I would be greatful.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Itachi Uchiha, posted 11-28-2003 5:43 PM Itachi Uchiha has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024