Islam does not hate christianity

Faith writes me:

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I've argued this at great length on other forums, but I do not have the references at hand and I have other things to do, and your rudeness doesn't even deserve this reply.

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Yes it does, or else you wouldn't have made this reply. Based on the bullshit you've been posting here it would seem that your "references" are nothing but fundie apologetics.

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The ones who do not take it as given -- or written -- are the moderates.

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Yes, just like Christian moderates.

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Israel was God's instrument to show the world His law and His dealings with humanity.

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Thank you for justifying genocide. Not many fundies have the guts to come right out and say that genocide is justifiable. It's good when one of you slips up and reveals your true colors. Now we know where you're coming from.

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Amalek was an inveterate enemy of God and God's people.

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The children of the Amalekites were killed too, ya know. I guess that's okay though, since you don't have a problem with genocide. But just for the record, those Amalekites, including the suckling babies who God - in his infinite mercy - ordered killed, were the descendants of the Amalekites who had confronted the Israelis. The genocide was ordered some 400 years after the original offense. No way any of the actual perpetrators were still alive, only their descendants several generations later.But then again, since genocide is cool with you I suppose none of this matters.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

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Christianity is a dogma of oppression; its product is willing an obedient slaves.

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I think you're missing what christianity was meant to be and judging it by its misuse in history.

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It is NOT an accident that the most vehement support for American Imperialism comes from the nexus of right-wing politics and religion; religion is primarily a conservative influence that rationalises the government as good.

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A revolution against capitalism would make religion even less significant, as the obfuscatory and propagandist role of the church will no longer be required.

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John wrote of false prophets that would do miracles and persuade you, I took that as a metaphor for using Jesus.People would start living and would be real.Basically the argument is if God is pleased with our society right now.You can be the judge of that.

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

I think religious fundamentalists aren't bad.There is an essential flaw in all beliefs relating to man and not God (these are all other fundamentalists), in that they are trivial.I respect those that honor their God and their religion by believing and accepting in knowledge of opposing evidence and lacking any evidence for their religious beliefs. They are the Last Samuria of this world and should be respected for their faith.That there are misrepresentations to every religion, you should not judge the Muslim fundamentalists by the violent ones, although they may have every right to be violent, and you should not judge the christian fundamentalists by the ignorant, propaganda preaching ones, the television evangelists and whoever else that shines a negative light on truly beautiful faith.I am a christian fundamentalist to show a symbol that I have faith in God and I identify with a beautiful piece of literature more than scientific evidence.

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

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The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service. The reason there is not a Palestinian state is not that Israel has refused, it's that they refuse all states short of all of Israel. They draw their maps as if Israel did not exist. It's all "Palestine" though there never was a Palestinian people until Israel had become established there.

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Wrong. They believed they worshipped the same God. With assertions like one above you attempt to rewrite history.

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The christians only had to pay tribute to stay on their lands.

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Islam spread originally by the sword.

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Actually it didn't. You could make a better correlation to that statement and christianity, noting the inquisition and the crusades.You judge Islam by muslim pirates?

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-one word to describe me, spectacular yes

I haven't the time or patience to answer the kind of hateful bias that goes on at this site. But here's another site for you all to ponder.WordPress › Error

you're not going yto justify your beliefs?

I think you are misrepresenting things when you state this. Is it your opinon? or fact? that there are more poor Christians than poor Muslims in Islamic states and that it is due directly to the taxation of the Christians?

I've done my homework on Islam over the years and Faith appears to understand more about Islam than you do. You need to understand first of all that Christianity began with Jesus the Christ. OT Jews were not Christians. They were God's people/kingdom/nation through who he will eventually establish his kingdom on earth via Jesus Christ at his 2nd advent. True Christian Biblical fundamentalists believe, practice and live as Jesus and the apostles taught, i.e, to even love and help their enemies and to harm nobody. Jesus restored the ear of the soldier who's ear Peter cut off when they came to arrest Jesus.Not so with Islamic fundamentalists. They follow and practice the teachings and examples of Mohammed who killed and enslaved thousands and who taught his followers to fight, enslave, tax and and abuse/oppress the infidels. Mohammed had a whole Jewish town under siege. The defenseless town surrendered. Mohammed then took all the women and children to be sold into slavery and then spent all day beheading all the men of the village. Islamic fundamentalists are not madmen. Osama BenLaden and Sadam Hussein are not madmen. Their just good fundamnentalists who follow and teach what the Koran, the Hadiths and the Sunnas advocate and what the Prophet did and taught.The day before 9/11 I was with Newsmax Forum debating an Islamic fellow about these very things, my position being that Islam was a violent religion. To my great surprise, the very next morning this horrific show and tell event happened, to my dismay. The Islamic chap never showed up to finish the debate, after the forum resumed following the event, and of course I don't blame him. It would have been interesting to know what he thought about it all. Again, apples and oranges. The OT massacres were ordered by the true god, Jehovah for the purpose of:
1. Establishing a nation for his chosen people who would eventually establish his kingdom on earth.
2. Destroy the false gods and worshippers of those gods occupying that land, i.e. Caanan.
3. When Israel, God's own people messed up and began worshipping false gods, guess what? God used other pagan nations like Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon to massacre them and take the remnant captive for punishment and eventual world wide dispersement. Why? For the same reason. The land of Israel was to be God's place for his eventual kingdom and not to follow false gods.What Mohammed set out to do in the 7th century by the establishment of Islam and his god, Allah was to mimic the OT. He ordered his people to kill, conquer and occupy and it was not just one land, but was to eventually conquer the planet for him and his god, Allah.So this all boils down to which god is the true god who has the authority to order this stuff, Allah or Jehovah and which was the true prophet, killer Mohammed or nonviolent Jesus? This is what's going on in the Middle East and why, as the Biblical prophets and Jesus prophesied, in the latter days, (ours) Israel, after being 2 milleniums scattered worldwide are back in their/Jehovah's land for the soon return of messiah Jesus. This war on terror will end eventually at Armageddon, [b]after Islamic/Russian/northern European alliance emerges, being the prominent power to eventually invade Jerusalem. Jesus appears and these armies by him and by turning against each other will be wiped out with dead bodies everywhere. Read about the prophesy of the return of Jews and the invasion in Ezekiel 37, 38, and 39. It is also alluded to in other OT prophets, NT books and in Revelation.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-22-2005 23:08 AM

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In Jehovah God's Universe; time, energy and boundless space had no beginning and will have no ending. The universe, by and through him, is, has always been and forever will be intelligently designed, changed and managed by his providence. buzsaw

Allah IS the true GOD of the OT. Same dude. And how are any of those different than Islam establishing a nation as directed by the same GOD?

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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...it would seem that your "references" are nothing but fundie apologetics.

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The sources would all be very surprised to hear that. Not one fundie among them, in fact only one Christian, from before the term "fundamentalist" was coined, the author of a scholarly work on the history of Christianity.

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Israel was God's instrument to show the world His law and His dealings with humanity.

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Thank you for justifying genocide. Not many fundies have the guts to come right out and say that genocide is justifiable. It's good when one of you slips up and reveals your true colors. Now we know where you're coming from.

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So many these days are apparently incapable of discriminating between murder and justice on just about every major issue. To call God's justice genocide is a case of this popular moral reversal. It's very sad.

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Amalek was an inveterate enemy of God and God's people.

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The children of the Amalekites were killed too, ya know. I guess that's okay though, since you don't have a problem with genocide.

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God's judgments are very disturbing. Nobody wants anyone to die, certainly not I, but such incidents were written for people to learn from, about the nature and consequences of sin -- the wages of sin is death. The moral high ground you think you are standing on is extremely shaky.

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But just for the record, those Amalekites, including the suckling babies who God - in his infinite mercy - ordered killed, were the descendants of the Amalekites who had confronted the Israelis. The genocide was ordered some 400 years after the original offense. No way any of the actual perpetrators were still alive, only their descendants several generations later.

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That is correct, and it was written in order to teach something about the moral nature of the universe you live in, a lesson that you are refusing to learn.Exodus 34:6-7 The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

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But then again, since genocide is cool with you I suppose none of this matters.

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God's justice is terrible but right.

How can that be when it runs so clearly counter to our own moral sense? By what moral reasoning? Or is it only "right" because God is God, and anything he does must be right?

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The religion says Jews must go, Israel must go, and any kind of deception is permitted in that service. The reason there is not a Palestinian state is not that Israel has refused, it's that they refuse all states short of all of Israel. They draw their maps as if Israel did not exist. It's all "Palestine" though there never was a Palestinian people until Israel had become established there.

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Wrong. They believed they worshipped the same God. With assertions like one above you attempt to rewrite history.

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Wrong. There's a ton of evidence for what I'm saying out there. If you start with Jihad Watch and faithfreedom.org you'll find it.They believed they worshipped the same God, yes, but that their new revelation cancelled out the Biblical revelation and is intended to conquer the world, and those who stick to the Biblical religions are now infidels for rejecting the new revelation. The Koran changes Biblical facts, makes Ishmael Abraham's heir instead of Isaac as the Bible says, even confuses Mary the mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Moses. They consider this the truth and the Bible false. They changed the name of God. In the Bible God gives His N ame as YHWH, "I Am that I Am." That is His Name. It is not Allah. The name Allah was originally the name of the moon god, one of hundreds of idol gods that were housed at Mecca before Mohammed made it Muslim. Yes, Muslims believe they worship the same God, but they don't.

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The christians only had to pay tribute to stay on their lands.

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Basically they had to pay for the privilege of remaining alive. The same for the Jews throughout most of their history under Islam, in spite of a "golden age" in which they supposedly fared well, though indications are that it wasn't as golden as they would like to think.

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Islam spread originally by the sword.

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Actually it didn't. You could make a better correlation to that statement and christianity, noting the inquisition and the crusades.

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The Crusades were European wars to repel the Muslims who had invaded Europe and the Holy Land. It had nothing whatever to do with spreading Christianity. If you would look at the link I provided to the history of how Christianity was spread you would see that it had nothing to do with force. The Inquisition also had nothing to do with the spread of Christianity, it was one of the corrupt actions of the corrupt Roman church, and since I identify with the Protestants the Inquisition martyred I don't consider the Inquisition to have anything to do with Christianity.

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You judge Islam by muslim pirates?

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Try to keep context in mind. I was answering the idea that Muslim objections to the West are politically inspired by current events. The pirates were simply out to abuse Christians for being Christian. It's all about conquering the world for Allah and ridding the world of Allah's enemies, either by conversion or by murder.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-23-2005 01:39 AM

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...it is a tax that keeps a person in poverty.

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I think you are misrepresenting things when you state this. Is it your opinon? or fact? that there are more poor Christians than poor Muslims in Islamic states and that it is due directly to the taxation of the Christians?

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The tax is designed to humiliate and torment. There may be more dirt poor Muslims because the religion does not reward enterprise and success, but at least they have had the privilege of pushing Christians and Jews off the sidewalks. It's fact but I have to find the research. Christians are also forbidden to own a dwelling that is taller than a Muslim's and churches must always be smaller than mosques.

Right on, Buzsaw. What a relief! Somebody here who knows something.

Faith prates:

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So many these days are apparently incapable of discriminating between murder and justice on just about every major issue. To call God's justice genocide is a case of this popular moral reversal.

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From The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language: Need I present you with the definition of 'justice' as well: I am perfectly capable of distinguishing murder and genocide from justice. I'm afraid it is you who are confused. God ordered the systematic extermination of an entire race of innocent people, including suckling infants. Therefore God is just as bad as Hitler. No blood-thirsty Christian is ever going to convince me that genocide is ever, under any circumstances whatsoever, justifiable. It is immoral and reprehensible. You are the one who is saying otherwise.

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The moral high ground you think you are standing on is extremely shaky.

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No it's not. My morality is one in which genocide is unacceptable under any circumstances whatsoever. It's what you might call a 'moral absolute'. Ever heard that phrase before? Perhaps not, since you clearly don't understand the concept.

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Exodus 34:6-7 The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].

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Yes, yes, the same God who orders cold-blooded genocide. The same God who enjoys seeing little suckling babies ruthlessly killed. The same God who punishes the innocent for the sins of the guilty. That would be your God, certainly not mine.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!