HaShem - Yahweh or Jehovah?

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Jehovah (Yahweh)
At the above link,
in the Article Jehovah (Yahweh) in The Catholic Encyclopedia of 1910,
it says under the sub-heading To take up the ancient writers:>>>
The judicious reader will perceive that the Samaritan pronunciation Jabe
probably approaches the real sound of the Divine name closest;
the other early writers transmit only abbreviations or corruptions of the sacred name.Inserting the vowels of Jabe into the original Hebrew consonant text,
we obtain the form Jahveh (Yahweh),
which has been generally accepted by modern scholars
as the true pronunciation of the Divine name.It is not merely closely connected with the pronunciation of the ancient synagogue
by means of the Samaritan tradition,
but it also allows the legitimate derivation of all the abbreviations of the sacred name
in the Old Testament.
>>> Philip Schaff: ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
At the above link. The Ante Nicene Fathers Volume II [ANF-02]
provides an English translation of Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, which reads:>>>
Further, the mystic name of four letters which was affixed to those alone whom the adytum was accessible, is called Jave, which is interpreted, Who is and shall be.
>>>Some Greek manuscripts that contain Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, preserve the Greek spelling Iaoue , which The Ante Nicene Fathers Volume II translated into English as Jave.Some souces pronounce Iaoue [in English] as ee-ah-oo-eh,
which sounds like how "Yahweh" is pronounced in English.
I = ee
a = ah
ou = oo
e = ehee-ah-oo-eh = YahwehHowever there are some Greek manuscripts that preserve the Greek spelling Iaou and not Iaoue at Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34.Iaou is translated into English as Yahu not Yahweh.seeker02421

yes, it's still statisticaly very small. and still doesn't occur once in my JPS text.

Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stomata Book V. Chapter 6:34 has been used by some scholars as evidence that God’s name is YahwehThe Ante Nicene Fathers Volume II [ANF-02] provides an English translation of Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, which reads:
>>>
Further, the mystic name of four letters which was affixed to those alone to whom the adytum was accessible, is called Jave, which is interpreted, Who is and shall be
>>>
The above quote can be found at:
Philip Schaff: ANF02. Fathers of the Second Century: Hermas, Tatian, Athenagoras, Theophilus, and Clement of Alexandria (Entire) - Christian Classics Ethereal Library Scroll down until a purple Footnote # 81 is observed.
That indicates the start of Clement’s Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34.
"Jave" will be seen underneath Footnote # 81.Some reputable scholars believe that the Greek word underlying Jave, [in the ANF-02 English translation of Clement's Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34 above] is "Iaoue".However, there are other equally reputable scholars who can provide evidence that the underlying Greek of Jave is "Iaou" and not "Iaoue.It should be noted that the Greek name "Iaoue" supports the English transliteration Yahweh, while the Greek name "Iaou" does not support the English transliteration Yahweh.The case for the name Yahweh, which has been partially based on Clement of Alexandria’s Greek Stromata Book V. Chapter 6:34, may not be as solid as previously thought.
[Refer to message #121 where the Catholic Encyclopedia refers to Jave as Jabe and demonstates how "Yahweh" has been derived from "Jabe"]

Very funny discussion.
I want to remember to Arachnophilia, that have said (to Wm Scott Anderson): "you say "Isaac" i say "Yitszak." not a big difference. abraham or ibrahim? nehemiah or nachemyah? jacob or ya'aqov?..." that in one occasion, recorded in the Bible, the difference of pronunciation of a single word (shibboleth/sibboleth) became the base for the life or the death of some people. It is very dangerous conclude that this differences are always "not big", expecially when we discuss about the name of the Creator.
By.

yes, this is a very good point. (however, the point of it was to weed out another specific race, based on language. it would be like shooting everyone who mixed up their l's and r's in ww2) well, my point was that even if by most people conventions anglocised hebrew names are ok (and even used by hebrew people), the transition from yahweh to jehovah is a lot more than just anglocising it. (and therefore not ok even by lax standards)This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 05-11-2005 06:55 AM

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אָרַח

The problem isn't so simple. With the help of the Masorah we have now a solid base to support the reliability of the Hebrew Bible text.
Some doubts arouse sometimes about the Bible names, because often the Bible names not lend themselves to a plain translation and the subsequent choice of vowels.
Moreover, I ask you: what about the theoforical Bible names like Jehoshua, Jehoshaphat, etc.? Do we have to insere the Yahweh-vowels-pattern inside them, also?
If YES: Well, I am awaiting for this epochal turning-point. When it will take place, we will be able to discuss the validity of your viewpoint.
If NO: Why not? The vowels pattern you support is apt only for the divine name and not for the Bible name that INCLUDE INSIDE THEM the name of God?

Since the Masoretic Text sprang from the Academy at Jamnia (circa 100 A.D.) which selected one from a number of versions, can we assume that they had something approaching the original? While a lot of the Qumran Scrolls approximated the tradition of the later MT, many do not.

proper pronounciation would be a good thing, but most are not too far off. ya'aqov sounds a lot like jacob. but you're bound to get some disagreements even in the hebrew camps, since there are two different ways of pronouncing the language.also, a lot of name already have the same syllables in them. for instance, as i'v pointed out here, we say "isa-YAH" and not "isa-JEH." well, i do think the name of god should be rather important, more so than other names in the bible. jews today will know who you're talking about when you say "jeremiah" but they'll probably get offended if you say "jehovah."

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אָרַח

(1) Do you may line the boundary between a name "to far off" and one "not too far off"? Surely not. Now, we've to discuss only on the base of disposable informations. So, with your last reply, you have acknowledged that the "epochal turning-point" (so I defined my last reply) isn't occurred, implicitly.
(2) The reason of the your ipothetical "offense" from the Jews part is the same reason that pull some modern Bible translators so they substitutes the name "Jehovah" (existing yet in previous versions of their translations). The reason? The fear to be linked among the people that keep this name.

well, the offense was based on the permutation of the name. while j may sometimes be substituted for y, it is not in the syllable in question.for instance, we don't say "isajah" or "zecharijah." it just sounds funny. these are both name derived from the from the first syllable of the divine name.also, as i've pointed out, the vowels are also wrong."ya'aqov" kind of sounds like "jacob." the vowels are the same, q and c sound the same, v sort of sounds like a b in hebrew. so the only realy difference is a consonant.now with jehovah and yahweh - look at it. only two consonants are the same. the vowels are all different. there's even an extra vowel. it's barely even the same name.do i define the boundary? no. but seriously, some common sense is in order. if most of the letters are the same, it's probably ok. if most of the letters are different, it's probably not. if it sounds similar, it's probably ok. if it doesn't, it's probably not.

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אָרַח

The Bible translators, beginning with the Israelite (Divorced/Blinded) Septuagint, have always corrupted the Word of God.The "phony vowels" are from the "imaginary Jews."God "slayed" the nation of Israel (Isa 65.15; and many others); and New Jerusalem replaced Israel in AD 77 -- at the Resurrection in "this generation" (Mt 24.34).
El = single God.
1) Elohim = plural Gods; both pagan gods, and The God and The Lamb - Rev 22.1. Elohim is recorded about 2.300 times, and translated by the Lord Jesus to be (plural) "gods" - Ps 82.6; Jn 10.34.
Who would know better than the Lord Jesus? But this name is banned.
2)HWHY = He Is, found about 6,400 times; and corrupted by the divorced Jews (Isa 50.1) to read, "the Lord." But they had been "blinded (Isa 6.9-12; Mt 13.14-15).
HYHA = I Am.
3) Iesous = Iesous found over 950 times, and corrupted to read, "Iesus' by Jerome and KJV; and later corrupted to be, "Jesus" in about AD 1725, when the British invented the letter "J."
4) Christos = Anointed, found over 450 times, and transliterated to read, "Christ" and to hide the meaning.
But all these facts are known by the church leaders; only the church memberships are in the dark.
Considering the bold war against the names of God, the reader should suspect that thousands of other words have been tampered with also.
The Protestant Bible expositors were aware of wholesale tampering, and they would begin their commentaries by editing the translation.
So then, the Bible is only true in Hebrew and in Greek.hoaryhead

Hi Hoaryhead,I can see I am going to have to start your training early. First, when you cite the Bible, it would help if you quote the passage in question, if it isn't too long. Some people don't have a Bible handy to look it up and many don't have the inclination. It's easier all around and your points will be stronger if we can see what you're talking about.Second, paragraphs are nice. They make your posts easier to read (and easier to find what we want to rebut. )Third, you can use the little "peek" button in the lower right-hand corner of your screen to see how people do the "special effects" - like quotes, links, etc.Fourth, the editorial comments like "Divorced/Blinded" and "imaginary Jews" don't add anything and tend to make you look like a crank. If you think the Septuagint is "divorced/blinded", tell us why (in the appropriate thread). Also tell us what you mean by terms like "imaginary Jews" (in the appropriate thread).Remember, the object of the game here is to have people read your posts, not just to wear out your keyboard.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

the phony vowels are from the masoretes, who added ALL of the vowels to the bible. they also emended the text with commentary (like your footnotes) and preserved it very well. we would not have a hebrew bible if it were not for them.for point of reference, vowels make it easier for us non-native speakers to read the text. they indicate pronounciation, and pronounciation only.for instance, if i wanted to say the word for water, מים (MYM) and i spoke hebrew, i'd know intuitively that the mem sofit at the end wouldn't have a vowel sound afterward, but that the mem and the yod probably would. and i'd intuitively know what those vowels are. as non native speaker, i could probably guess that that it would MahYeeM. if you're familiar with the language, or the vocal patterns, it helps.how about אלהים ?that's an alef at the beginning. how is that pronounced? well, it's not. it's a nonvocal consonant. only the vowel after it is. ...how do know what that vowel is? what about that yod between the heh and the mem sofit? shouldn't that be rendered the same as mayim above? no, it doesn't have as many vowels, does it?how do you really know? at a certain point, they came to the conclusion that you really didn't. so that pronounciation would be preserved, they decided to add vowel points. they're not really letters, and still not commonly used (especially in cursive), so it doesn't really count as modifying the text of the bible.but since they were a pronounciation key, and YHWH was pronounced "adonai" instead of "yahweh" they gave it the vowels of adonai. it's not imaginary or phony. it's how you're supposed to say it -- and they don't believe you're supposed to speak god's name. so they don't pronounce it. depending on usage. context = very important. is the word "scissors" plural? how about "pants?" well, sort of, they are. it depends on how they are used.when elohim is used as a plural, it's plural. when it's used as a singular, it's singular. the verb is the important point. jesus was not a translator. also apparently any good jew would know better:

quote:

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Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

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no, it is not written in the law.

quote:

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Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

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the books of psalms are not in the law. the law, in hebrew, is the torah. the first five books. the psalms are not part of these. when writing in latin script, it's customary to write left-to-right. it is not corrupted: the point of it is to NOT corrupt. they believe the name is so holy that it should almost never be used. so they substitute speaking the WORD "adonai" which means "lord" in place of speaking aloud the name of god: yahweh. not a name of god, and not jesus's name either. jesus's name would have been יהושוע or yehowshua. or, if you prefer, joshua. rendered in greek, it's iesous, which at the time would have been pronounced about the same way. the difference between "christ" and "christos" is absolutely nothing. and both apply to the messiah, not god. are you charging a conspiracy? it's really not too hard to learn this sort of thing. it's not a war. the hebrew text still contains the name of god, just vowel-pointed for a different word. every single jew everywhere should know this: because they read the vowels and not the consonants. it's not being kept secret.nearly every biblical translation preserves this tradition, but there is no acceptable way to render pronounciation independent of consonants in english, so they opt for the symbolic rendering of "LORD." the capitalization is meant to remind you that it's a substitution, as the introduction to your bible probably indicates. most of mine do. don't complain to me. learn hebrew or greek.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 08-26-2005 05:39 PM

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אָרַח

When it comes to the word Elohim, you are missing a point about hebrew.WHile it is a plural form, the following verb in the passages you talk about is singlar, which means it isn't a pural, but rather a magnification of the word.. to stress it's importance.

I was proud of arachnophilla for defending mathematics as a science.I thought that I had finally met an intelligent man.But listen to this:
"The Jews pronounced the name of God wrong intentionally."Then he advocates accepting this "phony" name as real.The hypocrisy of "Pronounciations."
The only way to know how Hebrew was pronounced over 1900 years ago, would be to have a tape recording, or a CD.
But no one has this primary source for pronounciations.
The Jews in the 5th century claimed (Get this now!);
That their ancestors, and they, had memorized every word in the Old Testasment.
J. W. McGarvey is recorded to have memorized the New Testament in Greek, in the 1800s.
But the Old Testament is about 1.5 times larger.
But the boasting did not end there.
Then, for 500 years, they had memorized not only the entire Old Testament, but even every single syllable (when there are none in Hebrew) of the Old Testament.The Hebrew race had been abolished by God in their unwise war with Rome; and so, these were "imaginary Jews." See: Ps 2.8-12; Isa 65.15.
The Preterist writers agree on this simple biblical fact.
The Preterist writers even quote encyclopedias that agree "there is no race of Israelites; or Jews today."
This was determined by phrenology; the study of the skull, and other ancestral features.Please, retract your statement that the Jews pronounced God's name wrong on purpose, but this wrong name is -- right!To the Administrator:
While listing how many thousands of times that names appear in the Bible; such as, Elohim - about 2.300 times; and "He Is" (Yahweh) about 6,400 times; you have told me to give quotes.
Elohim - Gods creating (ptcp) the heavens and the earth - Gen 1.1.
He Is (Yahweh) - This is the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that 'He Is Gods' (Yahweh, Elohim) made the earth and the heavens - Gen 2.4.
My purpose was not to give quotes, but to present the result of my research on the number of times for each name.
The quotes add nothing to my research.hoaryhead