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Author Topic:   Religion without hell?
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 56 (11844)
06-20-2002 12:24 AM


Can I post this?
All religion have some kind of hell / torture, either physical (forever burning) or mental (forever rebirth). I know that this hell concept is powerful as a stimulant to make religious people avoid doing evils. However sometimes hell is also used to threaten atheists and fellow believers which did not agree on some minor points alike.
Can religion thrive without hell? Is hell the only reason for us to have religion? (IMHO, that can be seen as 'hell-worship' opposed to worshipping God or cash or anything).
Let me know your say.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 06-20-2002 3:49 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 6 by TrueCreation, posted 06-20-2002 12:56 PM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 2 of 56 (11858)
06-20-2002 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-20-2002 12:24 AM


There's unimaginable pain associated with hateful evil, for the evil do-er. A pain which makes all "natural" pains, like wounds and stuff, seem insignificant. You would be foolish to think such pain can't exist.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-20-2002 12:24 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by compmage, posted 06-20-2002 7:00 AM Syamsu has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 3 of 56 (11862)
06-20-2002 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Syamsu
06-20-2002 3:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
There's unimaginable pain associated with hateful evil, for the evil do-er. A pain which makes all "natural" pains, like wounds and stuff, seem insignificant. You would be foolish to think such pain can't exist.

Why is it foolish to think it can't exist?
I have seen no evidence to suggest that I exist past the death of body and since while I am alive I can only experiance natural pains I fail to see how it is foolish.
------------------
compmage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Syamsu, posted 06-20-2002 3:49 AM Syamsu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Syamsu, posted 06-20-2002 9:35 AM compmage has not replied

  
Syamsu 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days)
Posts: 1914
From: amsterdam
Joined: 05-19-2002


Message 4 of 56 (11870)
06-20-2002 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by compmage
06-20-2002 7:00 AM


This sort of "moral" pain also exists before death of course. I just meant to say that hellish pain exists, regardless of whether you believe in God and hell, or not.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by compmage, posted 06-20-2002 7:00 AM compmage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by John, posted 06-20-2002 10:40 AM Syamsu has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 56 (11873)
06-20-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Syamsu
06-20-2002 9:35 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Syamsu:
This sort of "moral" pain also exists before death of course. I just meant to say that hellish pain exists, regardless of whether you believe in God and hell, or not.
regards,
Mohammad Nor Syamsu

But calling a particular pain 'hellish' is colloquial for 'it hurts a lot.' It doesn't mean anything concrete.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Syamsu, posted 06-20-2002 9:35 AM Syamsu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by allen, posted 11-17-2002 10:19 PM John has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 56 (11884)
06-20-2002 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Andya Primanda
06-20-2002 12:24 AM


IMO and most of the Christian church, It isn't hell they are worried about, but eternal separation.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-20-2002 12:24 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by John, posted 06-20-2002 7:54 PM TrueCreation has replied

  
Cobra_snake
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 56 (11894)
06-20-2002 5:40 PM


I, like TC, relate hell with separation from God more than with painful torture.

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by joz, posted 06-20-2002 7:01 PM Cobra_snake has not replied
 Message 9 by joz, posted 06-20-2002 7:08 PM Cobra_snake has not replied
 Message 11 by Tertulian, posted 06-20-2002 11:46 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 56 (11897)
06-20-2002 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cobra_snake
06-20-2002 5:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
I, like TC, relate hell with separation from God more than with painful torture.
Well from where I am standing it doesn`t hurt a bit....
Hardly "hellish"....
Care to try again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cobra_snake, posted 06-20-2002 5:40 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
joz
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 56 (11898)
06-20-2002 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cobra_snake
06-20-2002 5:40 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
I, like TC, relate hell with separation from God more than with painful torture.
Well from where I am standing it doesn`t hurt a bit....
Hardly "hellish"....
Care to try again?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cobra_snake, posted 06-20-2002 5:40 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 56 (11901)
06-20-2002 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by TrueCreation
06-20-2002 12:56 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
IMO and most of the Christian church, It isn't hell they are worried about, but eternal separation.

Having grown up in a Christian church, I was never threatened with eternal seperation but with eternal fire that was seven times hotter than any fire on Earth.
I have heard the 'eternal seperation' argument. While it may be good for keeping believers in the church, it isn't any good for winning converts. For someone who has never heard of Christ, the threat of being forever seperated from him is meaningless.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by TrueCreation, posted 06-20-2002 12:56 PM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by TrueCreation, posted 06-21-2002 12:33 AM John has replied

  
Tertulian
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 56 (11911)
06-20-2002 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Cobra_snake
06-20-2002 5:40 PM


quote:
I, like TC, relate hell with separation from God more than with painful torture
IMO
The OT and therefore the Jews believed hell was a separation from their god.
Psalms 116:3-4
The sorrows of death, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found touble and sorrow. The called I upon the name of eh Lord; O Lord, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. KJV
The author seemed to be calling on God to deliver him from a problem he was having. Later on (Psalms 116:7) the author says:"Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the Lord hath dealth bountifully with thee." So he was not dead and therefore could not have been in the lake of fire of the NT.
Another reference to hell is in Jonah 2:2. Jonah is whinning from the belly of the whale. "..., and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice."KJV
Again, not dead just in a pickle.
Now in our Bible lesson we turn to the NT. There is all kind of fire in here. Fire seems to be painful to me. But what do I know. Here we go (I'll list them in sequence; all from the KJV):
Matthew 5:22, 18:9 "...hell fire."
Mark 9:43 "...to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (ouch!!)
Luke 16:23-24 "And in hell he [the rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torments,...for I am tormented in this flame."
James 3:6 "...fire of hell"
and finally Revelation 20:14 (everyone's favorite book) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
These may not be convincing to you but it tells me that 'separation from God' and 'painful torture' are two different doctrines.
Thanks for your time

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Cobra_snake, posted 06-20-2002 5:40 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 56 (11912)
06-21-2002 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by John
06-20-2002 7:54 PM


"Having grown up in a Christian church, I was never threatened with eternal seperation but with eternal fire that was seven times hotter than any fire on Earth.
I have heard the 'eternal seperation' argument. While it may be good for keeping believers in the church, it isn't any good for winning converts. For someone who has never heard of Christ, the threat of being forever seperated from him is meaningless."
--Hence the word 'illinformity', also, I believe that God's condemnation is just and fair, I reject the conjecture that God will send someone in hell for not believing in what Jesus Christ has done if they never heard the name. Also, you misuse the word 'threaten', it isn't a threat, but a warning.
------------------
[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-20-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by John, posted 06-20-2002 7:54 PM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by John, posted 06-21-2002 1:46 AM TrueCreation has not replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 56 (11913)
06-21-2002 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by TrueCreation
06-21-2002 12:33 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
--Hence the word 'illinformity'

Hence the word..... wanna define that TC 'cause I can't find it on the web. I am assuming for now that it means something like 'poorly informed' which makes me wonder why you didn't just say "I think you where poorly informed." But more importantly, it implies that you are more correctly informed, which is just plain irritating. Of course, I guess you are one of the chosen.
It also sidesteps the real issue, which is that the Christianity I was raised with doesn't conform to your sophistry.
quote:
I believe that God's condemnation is just and fair, I reject the conjecture that God will send someone in hell for not believing in what Jesus Christ has done if they never heard the name.

Got some holy writ to back that up? Just curious, because it doesn't even address the same point I made, which involves not god's justice or sending people to hell who have not heard the name. My point was about the use of the concept in religion. Note the topic: "Religion without hell?"
quote:

Also, you misuse the word 'threaten', it isn't a threat, but a warning.

threaten: to declare intent to harm or punish, to warn of upcoming trouble or harm
warn: to alert to possible harm, to advise about the possible consequences of a particular action.
both from Wordsmyth at http://www.wordsmyth.net
Pretty close, eh? Note that 'threaten' actually uses 'warn' in it definition. For you its a warning, for someone who DOESN'T ALREADY BELIEVE it is a threat.
But why the word game? Can you not stand that your god can threaten? Or that the church threatens everytime it brings up hellfire? Or that the threat of hell is a powerful psychological force? Or that threats are the building blocks of the faith? You've nothing solid, so why not use FEAR?
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by TrueCreation, posted 06-21-2002 12:33 AM TrueCreation has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-28-2002 5:21 AM John has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 56 (12332)
06-28-2002 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by John
06-21-2002 1:46 AM


bump
Let me ask it another way. Can a religion teach us to know God without having to point at Hell? Sadly, Christianity & Islam (of which I know well) rely heavily on Hell to make people do what God said.
Rabi'ah, a female Muslim sufi, once stated, 'Allah, if I worship You because of lust for heaven, then forbid me from entering heaven. If I worship You because of fear of hell, then put me in hell for eternity. I worship You because of love.'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by John, posted 06-21-2002 1:46 AM John has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by John, posted 06-28-2002 10:11 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
John
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 56 (12336)
06-28-2002 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Andya Primanda
06-28-2002 5:21 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Andya Primanda:
Can a religion teach us to know God without having to point at Hell?
The more mystical branches of most religions do this. But mysticism never really becomes popular religion.
------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-28-2002 5:21 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Andya Primanda, posted 06-28-2002 12:16 PM John has replied

  
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