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Author | Topic: Religion without hell? | |||||||||||||||||||||
Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
Can I post this?
All religion have some kind of hell / torture, either physical (forever burning) or mental (forever rebirth). I know that this hell concept is powerful as a stimulant to make religious people avoid doing evils. However sometimes hell is also used to threaten atheists and fellow believers which did not agree on some minor points alike. Can religion thrive without hell? Is hell the only reason for us to have religion? (IMHO, that can be seen as 'hell-worship' opposed to worshipping God or cash or anything). Let me know your say.
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
There's unimaginable pain associated with hateful evil, for the evil do-er. A pain which makes all "natural" pains, like wounds and stuff, seem insignificant. You would be foolish to think such pain can't exist.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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compmage Member (Idle past 5153 days) Posts: 601 From: South Africa Joined: |
quote: Why is it foolish to think it can't exist?I have seen no evidence to suggest that I exist past the death of body and since while I am alive I can only experiance natural pains I fail to see how it is foolish. ------------------compmage
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Syamsu  Suspended Member (Idle past 5590 days) Posts: 1914 From: amsterdam Joined: |
This sort of "moral" pain also exists before death of course. I just meant to say that hellish pain exists, regardless of whether you believe in God and hell, or not.
regards,Mohammad Nor Syamsu
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John Inactive Member |
quote: But calling a particular pain 'hellish' is colloquial for 'it hurts a lot.' It doesn't mean anything concrete. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
IMO and most of the Christian church, It isn't hell they are worried about, but eternal separation.
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Cobra_snake Inactive Member |
I, like TC, relate hell with separation from God more than with painful torture.
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: Well from where I am standing it doesn`t hurt a bit.... Hardly "hellish".... Care to try again?
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joz Inactive Member |
quote: Well from where I am standing it doesn`t hurt a bit.... Hardly "hellish".... Care to try again?
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Having grown up in a Christian church, I was never threatened with eternal seperation but with eternal fire that was seven times hotter than any fire on Earth. I have heard the 'eternal seperation' argument. While it may be good for keeping believers in the church, it isn't any good for winning converts. For someone who has never heard of Christ, the threat of being forever seperated from him is meaningless. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Tertulian Inactive Member |
quote: IMOThe OT and therefore the Jews believed hell was a separation from their god. Psalms 116:3-4The sorrows of death, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found touble and sorrow. The called I upon the name of eh Lord; O Lord, I beseech thee, deliver my soul. KJV The author seemed to be calling on God to deliver him from a problem he was having. Later on (Psalms 116:7) the author says:"Return unto thy rest, O my soul; for the Lord hath dealth bountifully with thee." So he was not dead and therefore could not have been in the lake of fire of the NT. Another reference to hell is in Jonah 2:2. Jonah is whinning from the belly of the whale. "..., and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice."KJVAgain, not dead just in a pickle. Now in our Bible lesson we turn to the NT. There is all kind of fire in here. Fire seems to be painful to me. But what do I know. Here we go (I'll list them in sequence; all from the KJV): Matthew 5:22, 18:9 "...hell fire."Mark 9:43 "...to go into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched." (ouch!!) Luke 16:23-24 "And in hell he [the rich man] lift up his eyes, being in torments,...for I am tormented in this flame." James 3:6 "...fire of hell" and finally Revelation 20:14 (everyone's favorite book) "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." These may not be convincing to you but it tells me that 'separation from God' and 'painful torture' are two different doctrines. Thanks for your time
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TrueCreation Inactive Member |
"Having grown up in a Christian church, I was never threatened with eternal seperation but with eternal fire that was seven times hotter than any fire on Earth.
I have heard the 'eternal seperation' argument. While it may be good for keeping believers in the church, it isn't any good for winning converts. For someone who has never heard of Christ, the threat of being forever seperated from him is meaningless."--Hence the word 'illinformity', also, I believe that God's condemnation is just and fair, I reject the conjecture that God will send someone in hell for not believing in what Jesus Christ has done if they never heard the name. Also, you misuse the word 'threaten', it isn't a threat, but a warning. ------------------ [This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 06-20-2002]
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John Inactive Member |
quote: Hence the word..... wanna define that TC 'cause I can't find it on the web. I am assuming for now that it means something like 'poorly informed' which makes me wonder why you didn't just say "I think you where poorly informed." But more importantly, it implies that you are more correctly informed, which is just plain irritating. Of course, I guess you are one of the chosen. It also sidesteps the real issue, which is that the Christianity I was raised with doesn't conform to your sophistry.
quote: Got some holy writ to back that up? Just curious, because it doesn't even address the same point I made, which involves not god's justice or sending people to hell who have not heard the name. My point was about the use of the concept in religion. Note the topic: "Religion without hell?"
quote: threaten: to declare intent to harm or punish, to warn of upcoming trouble or harm warn: to alert to possible harm, to advise about the possible consequences of a particular action. both from Wordsmyth at http://www.wordsmyth.net Pretty close, eh? Note that 'threaten' actually uses 'warn' in it definition. For you its a warning, for someone who DOESN'T ALREADY BELIEVE it is a threat. But why the word game? Can you not stand that your god can threaten? Or that the church threatens everytime it brings up hellfire? Or that the threat of hell is a powerful psychological force? Or that threats are the building blocks of the faith? You've nothing solid, so why not use FEAR? ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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Andya Primanda Inactive Member |
bump
Let me ask it another way. Can a religion teach us to know God without having to point at Hell? Sadly, Christianity & Islam (of which I know well) rely heavily on Hell to make people do what God said. Rabi'ah, a female Muslim sufi, once stated, 'Allah, if I worship You because of lust for heaven, then forbid me from entering heaven. If I worship You because of fear of hell, then put me in hell for eternity. I worship You because of love.'
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John Inactive Member |
quote: The more mystical branches of most religions do this. But mysticism never really becomes popular religion. ------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com
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