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Author Topic:   Atheism isn't a belief?
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1258 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 1 of 329 (233861)
08-16-2005 9:17 PM


This is the exact dedfinition crashfrog said he used:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
n 1: the doctrine or belief that there is no God [syn: godlessness] [ant: theism] 2: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So which is it a belief or disbelief?
crashfrog do you believe a God doesn't exist?
So I believe that the world is round. It may still be a fact but I still believe it.
Atheism is just an opinion that can't be proven or disproven.
Yet atheism isn't a belief?
Ok, it's a disbelief.
Yet I don't get it.
You believe a God exists. You believe the world is billions of years old.
Yet you don't believe there isn't a God?
Huh.
So what is it.
All of our convictions are beliefs, right? I'm getting a headache typing this.
Some help me and explain why it isn't a personal belief, that you don't believe in God.
Man I swear, if I talked with crashfrog in real life I would be able to sort this out easy. But when this shit is typed it's soo tricky and puzzling and anyone can make any convuluted statement seem
logical.
Someone please explain this to me before I die from this headache.
Thank you.
ps: I'd like to thank Lam for making comments about me.
And Jar for closing it so abruptly. When it was/is an important discussion.
I apologize in advance for cursing.
This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-16-2005 09:40 PM
This message has been edited by Chris Porteus, 08-16-2005 09:56 PM

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AdminNosy
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Message 2 of 329 (233910)
08-16-2005 11:58 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

PaulK
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Joined: 01-10-2003
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Message 3 of 329 (233920)
08-17-2005 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
08-16-2005 9:17 PM


According to the definition you quote atheism can be "a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods" therefore atheism need not be a belief.
So what exactly is the issue here ?

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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 329 (233924)
08-17-2005 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
08-16-2005 9:17 PM


As I understand it
A theist is one who believes in a god or gods. Adding the prefix 'a' to the word 'theist' reverses the definition in the same way that 'apolitical' is the reverse of 'political', so technically an atheist would simply be one who doesn't believe in a god or gods. That definition leaves room for a belief that there is no god or gods, but it doesn't require it. Therefore, the appellation 'atheist' alone is not enough to determine with certainty whether the person in question simply lacks belief in a god or gods or believes that there isn't a god or gods.

"I think younger workers first of all, younger workers have been promised benefits the government promises that have been promised, benefits that we can't keep. That's just the way it is." George W. Bush, May 4, 2005

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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 329 (233934)
08-17-2005 5:34 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
08-17-2005 3:06 AM


Re: As I understand it
"Believes there is no God" is an impossible position because the basis on which an athiest believes this is that there is no objective evidence for God in the natural. That however takes no account of the fact that God would have to be supernatural and so expecting natural to provide evidence for a supernatual God is a fools errant. The athiest says "no evidence" but doesn't look in the appropriate place. What 'tools' one might apply to look in the appropriate place is a different issue. Firstly, the athiest would have to decide that their examination of evidence is only partial and that his position is untenable until a complete examination is carried out.
For the athiest who plays the words to say "I lack belief" the situation is no different. The athiest isn't suspended in a vacuum. If asked "Okay you lack belief in God but what do you believe?" he will most likely say that the world is here for natural,undirected reasons: big bang, evolution etc. He lacks belief in God but has belief in something else. But if you examine the something else you find that there isn't a natural explaination for it. No one has yet got around the fact that we exist and for it all to come out of nothing is illogical - or at least there is no scientific basis for it. There was something (the Singularity?) and something doesn't arise from nothing - or at least Science has never found anything that does (similarily, some scientists believe in abiogenesis but to date there has been no undirected experiment carried out which has produced a single strand of self-replicating RNA from non-living material. The belief in abiogenesis is a faith one not science) Nor is there any scientific basis for saying something exists forever. Such questions are beyond the reach of science. The universe is here and a reason can't be posed as to why that is. Lacking any indication that there is a natural reason, a supernatural reason is equally possible. The athiest plumps for natural but can't say why. Well, he can, but can't give any sound rational basis for it. He believes it, ultimately, through faith alone.
The athiest who sits on the fence and says "I don't know either way" isn't an athiest. He's an agnostic. He's entitled to say "if I had to chose I reckon No God...but is only guessing without having any basis for his guess. He's at the root, an agnostic
As I understand it....

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CK
Member (Idle past 4146 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 329 (233935)
08-17-2005 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
08-17-2005 5:34 AM


Re: As I understand it
em...but you position presupposes that the supernatural is real.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 329 (233936)
08-17-2005 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by iano
08-17-2005 5:34 AM


Re: As I understand it
Well there's a lot wrong with what you are saying.
Firstly a position is not impossible because you don't like the arguments for it. The more so when you don't even allow that there might be other arguments,
Secondly it is NOT the case that if God existed there would be evidence of that in the natural world (while scientific proof is impossible, evidence is not).
Thirdly unless you can show a valid - and easily identifiable and accessible method of investigating the supernatural you cannot accuse others of refusing to look there.
Fourthly, lacking belief IS different. It requires no positive case against the existence of God. And since God does not have to be the immediate cause of anything we can observe no belief about the origins of anything we do observe contradicts a general concept of God. Thus all the "something elses" you mention are irrelevant.
Indeed the only way it could be impossible to lack belief in God would be if everyone knew that God existed - which surely you can see is not the case.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 8 of 329 (233942)
08-17-2005 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CK
08-17-2005 5:38 AM


Re: As I understand it
CharlesKnight writes:
em...but you position presupposes that the supernatural is real.
As the athiests pre-supposes it isn't. But in pre-supposing thus he says his natural tools don't show him the supernatural. Which they could hardly be expected to. Saying something doesn't exist when you haven't attempted to look for it - on its terms - is to say nothing at all. Note - on 'its' terms. Just like we do with the natural.
This message has been edited by iano, 17-Aug-2005 12:33 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 9 of 329 (233946)
08-17-2005 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Trump won
08-16-2005 9:17 PM


All of our convictions are beliefs, right?
I don't see that they are. I personally consider "belief" to cover only those things that I have to accept without evidence.
Since I try not to have any of those, I don't accept that atheism is a belief. Particularly since it's a position characterized by a lack of certain beliefs.
If atheism is a belief then "bald" is a hair color.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 10 of 329 (233947)
08-17-2005 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by PaulK
08-17-2005 5:55 AM


Re: As I understand it
PaulK writes:
Firstly a position is not impossible because you don't like the arguments for it. The more so when you don't even allow that there might be other arguments
It's nothing to do with liking the argument or not. It's demonstrating that the argument is incomplete. If there is argument against the argument of incompleteness then fine. What would it look like?
It is NOT the case that if God existed there would be evidence of that in the natural world (while scientific proof is impossible, evidence is not).
You seem to be contradicting yourself here: a)"if God existed, it is not the case there would be evidence in the natural world" b)"(natural)evidence is not impossible". Or maybe I've picked it up wrong
Unless you can show a valid - and easily identifiable and accessible method of investigating the supernatural you cannot accuse others of refusing to look there.
There is no easily identifiable way to investigate what happened at the point of the universe coming into existance: natural or otherwise. Yet many athiests believe it was natural. It has also been said, with some justification, that no-one really understands General Relativity Theory. Accessible it is not. What tools one can use to investigate the supernatural (God) is a different issue to whether it is valid to consider what may lie beyond the natural. Like it's not that I made up the idea. The idea of a supernatural has been around forever. To dismiss it out of hand as hocus pocus on the basis of naturalistic presumption...but without any genuine, unpredisposed and disciplined investigation....is not a position that has much merit in a case for athiesm.
That one has difficulty developing tools says more about ones ability/willingness to develop tools and to try them out than it does about the existance or otherwise of a supernatural.
Lacking belief IS different. It requires no positive case against the existence of God. And since God does not have to be the immediate cause of anything we can observe no belief about the origins of anything we do observe contradicts a general concept of God. Thus all the "something elses" you mention are irrelevant.
I don't agree. Belief in something else (natural) is a positive case against God. God cannot be, if there is something else which explains it all. The person has another belief so cannot believe in God. Fine, if the other belief was sound. Which it is not when it comes to the issue of 'first cause'. And first cause is the very place where God would be most necessary if he existed. So, no case one way or the other
If one believes neither God nor the Natural then one is beliefless altogether. They have no view at all. They are not athiest they are a-anything.

"..and everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved" (Acts 2:21)

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 11 of 329 (233948)
08-17-2005 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by iano
08-17-2005 6:56 AM


Re: As I understand it
Which they could hardly be expected to.
Depending on how you define the supernatural, which is really just a catch-all term for whatever unscientific nonsense you'd like to insert into the discussion, we might indeed have a very reasonable expectation of being able to apply rational empiricism to the subject.
For instance if the "supernatural" I was presented with was telekinesis, a person with the power to move objects with his mind at will, why would that not be ameinable to rational, empirical study of his powers and capabilities?

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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 12 of 329 (233949)
08-17-2005 7:30 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by crashfrog
08-17-2005 7:21 AM


Crashfrog writes:
Since I try not to have any of those, I don't accept that atheism is a belief. Particularly since it's a position characterized by a lack of certain beliefs.
It's a position characterized by lacking certain beliefs but holding others. Just like a theist lacks belief in a natural first cause and believes in a supernatural first cause. There is no central position for the athiest (although there is for the agnostic). An athiest will lack belief in God but will believe in natural first cause. Belief it is, because he doesn't have any objective evidence for it. One definition of religion is that it is a system of belief held in the face of no objective evidence and held to with ardour. So strong athiests are religious

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 329 (233951)
08-17-2005 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by iano
08-17-2005 7:30 AM


An athiest will lack belief in God but will believe in natural first cause.
Why do you continue to make authorititative statements about what atheists believe after having been told, by atheists, that they do not believe those things?

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 329 (233968)
08-17-2005 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
08-17-2005 7:23 AM


Re: As I understand it
So you are asserting that it is impossible to base a belief on incomplete information ? If not then how could the incompleteness you refer to make it impossible to believe that there is no God ?
To clarify the mistyped point it is not necessarily the case that there cannot be evidence of God's existence in the natural world. If you were correct then any argument for God based on the natural world (such as your proposed new topic) would be automatically wrong.
As to your assertion that it is necessary to look ot the supernatural - it seems that you can't offer any way of doing that.
That one has difficulty developing tools says more about ones ability/willingness to develop tools and to try them out than it does about the existance or otherwise of a supernatural.
In other words since you and other beleivers in the supernatural are unwilling to actually develop the tools you would need to make your case we have to accept that you are right ? It's your responsibility to make your case. And if it is true that you could develop the tools but refuse to do so, then I would have to question whether you truly beleive. Or is it the case that it is genuinely difficult or even impossible to truly investigate the supernatural ?
I don't agree. Belief in something else (natural) is a positive case against God. God cannot be, if there is something else which explains it all.
But I never said that the person concerned had to beleive in anythign which "explained it all" - only the immediate causes of the things you listed. There is no need for a person to take any view on ultimate causation, therefore it IS possible to lack belief in God and to also lack belief in a natural ultimate cause. But doing so does not make anyone beliefless about, say, the immediate cause of the Earth or life. Beleiving in a natural cause for the formation of Earth or the first life are as compatible with the existence of God as the belief that I typed this post instead of God.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 15 of 329 (233978)
08-17-2005 9:08 AM


Considering investigating God
An question oft asked is "How could one investigate God when we have no tools to do so?". God is presumed not to exist for the very reason that we consider ourselves powerless to apply any tools to it in investigating it. I think that that is a somewhat defeatist attitude myself given that we have accomplished so much when we put our minds to it. Think of the early pioneers in science, whose tools were so crude as to produce the wildest of results - and then consider if they had taken the same approach.
As with science, a lot can be achieved by presuming a position and then developing hypotheses to examine the presumption. An initial bit of thinking might produce the following:
a) I'm leaving the house only to discover that I've lost my car keys. I start rationalising. I don't get a bus to work to see if they are there as I must have had them to arrive at home with the car. I start thinking about where I might have left them but draw a blank. I start looking in the places where they most probably are; behind the sofa cushions, in my pockets etc. Then, irrationally I find myself looking in places I've already looked as if they could magically turn up by virtue of looking 10 times.
What I realise is that inanimate objects rely totally on me to find them. They can contribute nothing to the task of finding them. Nothing at all.
b) I'm an avid bird watcher. I've heard that the lesser-spotted eagle has been reported around the area. As with my keys I set about figuring out the rational way to observe it. Where is it likely to build a nest, what are it's feeding habits and and what times is it likely to be out and about. When and if I do spot it, it is a result of my efforts BUT ALSO the actions of the bird itself. If it didn't do what it did, I could have looked forever without being in the place where it revealed itself to me. It's actions were unconcious in helping me in my search but without them my search would have been in vain
c) I fancy this girl in work. I think she's make a good girlfriend. So I go about, as above, developing methods by which I might attract her attention. I shower at least once a week, I invest in that aftershave which seems to (at least on tv) drive them wild, I mind my language, I decide not to talk about football results when I meet her at the water fountain. Unless she makes some concious decision in my direction however, I am powerless to have her reveal her thoughts on me, to me. I do what I think I can do. And I do it as well as I can but the choice is to a fair extent, hers.
d)I decide I want to investigate if God. I have no clue about what actions I should take but given the above progression, I can presume that if he exists, then the revealing is to a large, if not total extent reliant on him doing it. In presuming his existance I may (although I may not - but we're trying to develop a positive hypothesis) consider the following to be 'reasonable' things to assume for a start:
- God would be a complete wonder. Somebody/thing who could do all this would be beyond my wildest dreams about what is possible to achieve. I would have no inkling as to the power/ability/means it would take. If I assumed this then the assumption of some humility would be a sensible thing to assume. If God exists then 'me' is a speck compared to 'him'. I would be at his mercy not the other way around. I, it would seem likely, would have to bow my will to his
- It is reasonable to presume that God did all this for a reason. The reasons might be to amuse himself, or he might be prototyping for something else he has in mind. But given the new found and appropriate humility of above, I may just hold off second-guessing and just suppose he did it for a reason which is far beyond my comprehension. Not only would he have to reveal himself, he would have to reveal his reason too.
- It would be reasonable to suppose that his reason has something to do with me. Man after all is orders of magnitude above all other creatures as far as we can tell: man walks naturally upright, has vastly greater intelligence, is a historical and political being, has consciousness and self-awareness, man has propositional language which allows him to write prose, poetry and express emotion in complex ways using this language,is capable of complex reasoning, has mathematical skills, has achieved massive amounts in culture and science, has an aesthetic dimension, is not completely governed by instinct,is uniques in his relationship with the opposite sex: he can chose to love and chose the level of that love, man has a moral dimension, man has a spiritual dimension. If man is an animal then he is the most extraordinary animal there is or ever was. Yes, it is reasonable to suppose God's purpose has something to do with me.
- That there is no widespread revelation of himself, yet many say they have had this revelation, implies that there would be terms and conditions to his self-revelation. It is also reasonable to suppose that this self-revelation would be such so as to ensure the person to whom he was doing the revealing was in no doubt as to what was happening. Nothing that man could suggest as an alternative reason for the idea that God had revealed himself would be powereful enough to cause the person to doubt what had happened.
- If God exists and there was a reason why he created me to be the pinnacle (as far as I know) of all he has created then it is not unreasonable to suppose that he might want me to know that he is there. Maybe he wants to reveal himself but I am not meeting his terms and conditions. It may well be that he leaves the choice up to me, that is to say, his terms and conditions could very well be that I must be the one to want him to reveal himself to me - before he will do that. Like the keys,lesser-spotted eagle, attractive girl my desire to have them reveal themselves depends more and more on the amount of desire I have to have them reveal themselves. Given that God would be total maybe the amount of my desire must be total. What would total desire look like.
- It is reasonable to suppose that a desire born out of curiousity or fun is not a total desire. The desire would have to be a genuine, heartfelt one, one that felt that this was the question to which one wanted an answer above all others. If God did reveal himself then it is reasonable to suppose that it will be the most significant thing that would ever happen. As much humility as one could summon would be the total humility one could summon. Total humility would, I imagine, be essential.
- such total desire too would involve a total, blind acceptance of the consequences of desiring God to reveal himself. Massive consequences such as
a)life would never be the same again. It would change dramatically and there is no way of knowing beforehand whether this would be for better or worse. It would be placing total trust in God that, him revealing himself would not be the worst thing you ever did. But you couldn't know beforehand. A blind leap. A leap of faith.
b)There is no possibility to go back to disbelief after such a revelation. Once it happened that would be that. One would now have no choice but to believe...and all that that might entail. One would have relinquished their freedom to chose on this matter.
c) An acceptance that if God doesn't reveal himself that that is not proof of his non-existance. It means accepting that God is allowed to reveal on his terms and that if he doesn't it could be that the terms haven't been met or that the timing, his timing for revealing himself, might not be now. Again humility and bowing to whatever it is he wants to do.
That's the hypothesis. It's only one of a myriad of possible hypotheses but there is nothing unreasonable in it. Best thing to do now is to test the hypothesis to see if it works. There is no point though if the hypothesis isn't followed. So due consideration of it: humility, acceptance of any and all consequences that may follow, a genuine desire for God to reveal himself - realising that ones ability to have total desire is imperfect but it is the best one can do at present, the acceptance that it one would be asking God to do something very special - just because you ask it. That's the hypothesis
All that remains is to ask Him to reveal himself. As simple and as hard as that. Simple, because it would only be the simplest form of words required. Hard because in following the hypothesis means those words would have to come from the very bottom of your heart. No one knows where that is. You'd have to trust that he would
p.s. an obvious help in asking "from the bottom of your heart" would be to ask him to help you ask from the bottom of your heart. If he exists it would seem reasonable to suppose that he could and that he would.

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