Devils Advocate, a little game of role reversal

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You could be an Atheistic creationist.

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It is easy to fill this role. An intelligent race in the future masters the properties of time and matter. They travel back in time and start a new quantum fluctuation that results in creation of a new universe. They encode the fluctuation so that the outcome of both life and matter is known before the universe is created. Since the intelligent race is natural, you can believe in a created universe by natural, non-theist mechanisms.This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 07-29-2004 12:45 PM

i see.think the raeliens fall into that category btw?

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think the raeliens fall into that category btw?

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It would seem so. They are an intelligent design crowd devoid christian theology, or any deity based religion for that matter. I guess you could call them athiest creationists, or at least athiest IDers.

How do you know he's powerful? How do you know He exists? And don't give me that "You must be filled with the Holy Spirit to know God" - crap... I need proof! But we could be the product of chance (ahem, assuming chance is not an inherent quality of only our own universe) derived from an infinite number of universes. This universe just happened to have the right combination of attributes for us to pop out of the ground. There's no way to know whether this is true just as there's no way to know whether God created it! If your so-called god exists, do you have evidence that he has broken the laws of physics in the past??? Show me proof! and don't tell me the proof is in his amazing creation all around us; we've already been over that; a god is not necessary for us to exist. Don't tell me his proof is in the pudding and give me some story about how He's worked in your life; this is post-hoc/confirmation bias. Don't tell me his proof is in the good vs evil nature of society because morals are, like everything else, a product of evolution. Since when has the majority ever been right a majority of the time? (Just look who's President!) That's because we are the only ones with the balls to think critically about everything and face life in our own power! Christianity is a crutch for the weak. My god! (expletively speaking)... the self-righteous arrogance of it all! You think YOU are special out of all the thousands of religions in the world, God favors YOU and YOU alone. Don't give me that crap about everyone being unrighteous and only in Christ do we have reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins. I do what is best for others and myself. I am honest. I live life to the fullest. I am tolerant of EVERYONE. And yet despite my goodness you tell me I deserve to be separated from God for eternity, because I choose not to believe in YOUR version of the creator. Yeah, you mean like the strength of the Crusaders and the torturers in the inquisition and the conquistadors in America and the Nazi's in Germany and our soldiers in Iraq... They were all pretty strong. Does that make their beliefs true? Isn't your statement completely contradictory to your own holy book, "My power is made perfect in weakness"?If there was doubt, then NO one would be a Christian! Christians refuse to think about things in order to keep living in their fairytale land where there is a greater purpose in life and there is a reward for what we do in this life and there is a God who cares completely and totally about us. If he cares SOO much, why does he let evil exist in this world? The very fact that bad people do bad things to good people DISPROVES GOD'S EXISTANCE!Christians are only deluding themselves to make the painful experiences in life and death seem bearable. They might as well grow some balls like us atheists and face the real world just as we are born, all alone.

Bravo.regards,
Esteban Hambre

Hangsawg, Ah, but then he wasn't elected by the majority .Mark

It's a bit convoluted when it's not really necessary.
It says that in the beginning God created.....but does not say whose beginning, there is your very old earth. It also says the world was dark, and filled with water, and then at some point God said let there be light.
We don't need to juggle the figures to balance the books. We just need to look at what it says and take it from there.

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How do you know he's powerful? How do you know He exists?

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Because he said that He is all powerful and that He exists? You blindly follow the words of evolutionists, what is the difference?

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If your so-called god exists, do you have evidence that he has broken the laws of physics in the past???

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We don't need evidence, but you need evidence that he didn't. You just assume, because of your scientific bias, that God doesn't affect the physical world when in fact he does. The better explanation is that the world is 6,000 years old because of this.

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Show me proof! and don't tell me the proof is in his amazing creation all around us;

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It isn't, but the proof is in Genesis. Since the Genesis account makes better sense of the evidence, it is obvious that the world is young and that life was created.

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Since when has the majority ever been right a majority of the time?

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You only claim that evolution is the correct theory because it is accepted by a majority of scientists. Therefore, by your own logic, evolution isn't true.

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Don't give me that crap about everyone being unrighteous and only in Christ do we have reconciliation, the forgiveness of sins.

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It isn't crap, and it isn't christians saying this, it is God saying this. We are followers, not creators.

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Yeah, you mean like the strength of the Crusaders and the torturers in the inquisition and the conquistadors in America and the Nazi's in Germany and our soldiers in Iraq...

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They weren't real christians and they weren't following Christ.

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Christians refuse to think about things in order to keep living in their fairytale land where there is a greater purpose in life and there is a reward for what we do in this life and there is a God who cares completely and totally about us.

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And athiest evolutionists resist God because of their ideologies. The only thing stopping science from accepting the Genesis account is that they refuse to accept the reality of God. Even now, the walls of Evolution are coming down just as they did in Jericho.

(I was wondering anyone would catch that)Well, it doesn't matter. He only hung on to the electoral vote majority by his fingernails because he's an arrogant fanatical Christian like SO MANY people in this country. He would never be elected in a more enlightened socialistic European country where Christians are a small minority. And look where his misguided version of God has gotten us! We're at WAR for crying out loud! What on earth could be worse than being at war? People DIE in war! Violence never solves problems. We need to negotiate. Nothing is worse than a decision to bring about death because this life is all we have.

I'm callin' bull on that one. There is no evidence that ANYONE has ever been spoken to by a metaphysical being. All of the people who have claimed this are either lying or suffering from a mental disorder. The Bible is a human document. You cannot prove it is of divine origin therefore it has no value other than a few wise moral words. Scientists have worked hard their whole lives to study the world through empiricism. They are not idiots. If you think you are smarter than them, this only pronounces your own arrogance. Their knowledge comes from data and reproducable experiments. A theory is only generally accepted when MANY scientists look at the SAME data and are forced to the same conclusions. I'm baffled. Is this not proof of your own stupidity and divorcement from reality? If you want to believe something.. If you want to consider faith a valid method of perception, then it must at least agree with the two other methods of perception: empiricism and rationalism. How do I know? I can't know unless you can prove it to me. Faith is not a valid method of perception to me, and never will be as long as you tell me to believe in something that contradicts what I see with my own two eyes! Oh really... You speak for God eh? If God wants to talk to me why doesn't he just open his mouth and speak to me himself instead of sending cooky wierdos like you people to represent him? I'm sure they would disagree. Making the description of a "christian" arbitrary so that you can remove it when it damages your rep is shameless and only evidences the unstable nature of the thinking of such deluded keepers of the faith. Yes, the ideology that there is a real world. ...or maybe its the fact that massive amounts of evidence refute the Genesis account, since after all, science is based on evidence and empiricism, not faith... but go ahead and continue in your neurosis, just don't demand that my kids be taught your self-sustained lies. Haha... well, just keep tootin' your horn and running around in circles and we'll see what happens.

A'ight...this is just scary.You and Loudmouth are too damn good at this.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

WEEEE, this is fun . . .

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There is no evidence that ANYONE has ever been spoken to by a metaphysical being.

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Fulfilled prophesies are proof that God was speaking to the prophets. Only an omniscient God could have predicted the things that were fulfilled in the Bible. Therefore, the Bible is God's spoken word recorded by the Biblical authors. He may even talk to you if you open your heart and learn to listen to His voice.

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Scientists have worked hard their whole lives to study the world through empiricism.

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And they have done so blindly ignoring the God that created the very things that they study. It is not true empricism, but scientific imperialism practiced by athiestic scientists who can't or won't accept the realities of a living God. Science is limited by it's own philosophy, methodological naturalism. A scientist is not even allowed to entertain the thought of the supernatural, much less test for it in the creation. Science has fallen to the rise of secularism and has led people away from the Truth, the truth written of in Genesis.

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If you want to believe something.. If you want to consider faith a valid method of perception, then it must at least agree with the two other methods of perception: empiricism and rationalism.

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Empiricism and rationalism is the crutch of the those who are mentally weak. God is far superior in intellect and reason, and therefore his Word supercedes the limited capacities of man. Something is only empirical if it matches God's Word, and something is only rational if it matches His teachings. But go ahead, blindly follow you man made religion and we will talk again in front of the Pearly Gates.

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If God wants to talk to me why doesn't he just open his mouth and speak to me himself instead of sending cooky wierdos like you people to represent him?

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God is talking to you, you just won't listen. You have closed your ears to him by proclaiming that He doesn't exist. I am not his representative, only his follower. Jesus was God's representative to Man, and his teachings support a young earth and created life as we see it today.

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Making the description of a "christian" arbitrary so that you can remove it when it damages your rep is shameless and only evidences the unstable nature of the thinking of such deluded keepers of the faith.

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Real christians don't kill millions of people, especially God's Chosen People. It is only by His command that we are to set out against another man, and only then as part of His Old Covenant which has been replaced by Jesus's New Covenant.

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or maybe its the fact that massive amounts of evidence refute the Genesis account, since after all, science is based on evidence and empiricism, not faith...

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It is only man's interpretation of the world. God's interpretation is much better and describes the evidence in a more accurate fashion. It is not faith, it is fulfilled prophesy and fulfilled prayer that prove the creation happened, not man's stories about rocks.Added in edit (and out of character):

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Haha... well, just keep tootin' your horn and running around in circles and we'll see what happens.

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That caused a fit of laughter. Great retort.This message has been edited by Loudmouth, 07-30-2004 03:40 PM

haha... let it never be said that I do not understand the opposing viewpoint.

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haha... let it never be said that I do not understand the opposing viewpoint.

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Same here.

No kidding...! First of all, prophecies are subject to a myriad of interpretations. I could make a cryptic prophecy and guarantee that it would be fulfilled in the News on Monday.Secondly, there is no irrefutable evidence that any of the prophecies were fulfilled by whatever interpretation you choose. If he would just say something, I'd do a helluva lot more than open my heart. 40% of all scientists in America are Christians so your premise is false.Science cannot prove or disprove god so he may as well be an abstraction: one which I do not care to waste my time contemplating. If there is a god and he is so lame as to not reveal himself to me, I want no part of him. Oh really? Where does it say that in God's "Word"? As I recall, from when I was a poor brainwashed young man, the Bible says, "study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that needeth not to be ashamed..." and "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the duty and honor of kings to search out a matter." Blah blah... don't try to scare me with the concept of an after-life. I know good and well that there isn't an afterlife, because there is no proof of one. Any such idea is only a delusion and only prevents us from living the one and only life we have to the fullest. You know you are actually right! If god did speak to me, (which he never will because he doesn't exist) I wouldn't want any part of him anyways for all the things he's made me go through and for all the bad things he allows to continue. Ya know what, god, if you're out there, SCREW YOU! Glad you brought that up as I just heard a minister advertising a series of sermons on creation. In his words, "The same God who sent Jesus Christ to die for our sins and raised him again on the third day is the same God who's act of creation is described in Genesis. If he can't get our creation right, how can we trust the Bible for anything else? Come here how science validates a Genesis... blah blah bla" Give me a choice between thousands of scientists with Ph.D.'s and a collection of 4000 year old documents which were passed down by word of mouth for millinea beforehand, I'll choose the former ever time.