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Author Topic:   The Pope's Faulty Thesis (in regards to Islam)
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 16 of 75 (350093)
09-18-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tusko
09-18-2006 6:56 PM


First on the issue of ID, please read the recent In The News thread Message 1.
The Vaticans position seems to be more one of theist evolution than of ID.
I think you would find the Pope in complete agreement that forced conversions by any religion are wrong, and that includes Christianity.
I find it significant that he includes the Qur'an as one of the three "Rules of Life". He then goes on and in the next paragraph address the line that has caused so much consternation.
I believe he royaly screwed up in the example he chose. I do NOT believe that there was any intent though to show Islam as less reasonable than Christianity. He even preceeded the statement with the phrase "Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels", he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness, a brusqueness which leaves us astounded (emphasis in the Vatican document), on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying:..."
I do not think he does claim that Christianity is more rational than Islam. That was NOT what the speech was about, rather the speech seems to me to be a call declaring that reason must be part of religion, that any religion that denies the voice of reason as shown by science is flawed. That includes Christianity and in particular, Roman Catholicism.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:56 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Tusko, posted 09-19-2006 5:06 AM jar has replied
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 17 of 75 (350105)
09-18-2006 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Tusko
09-18-2006 6:56 PM


Why Reason is with the Catholics
I see this as a clear indication that the pope sees Christianity as more compatable with the idea of the rational than Islam.
Holy cow! I can't believe a Westerner would think Islam is more compatible with reason. Wait a minute, a liberal sees everything upsidedown and focuses on perceived intentions rather than results. Are you a liberal?
Proof of Pope's reasoning:
1. 400,000 Catholics cross the southern border of USA each year for opportunity (such as work, crime, welfare) to improve their lives
2. Islamic terrorists are Muslim, and cross the border to destroy property and lives (including their own)
3. Catholics in some cases accept Evolution
4. Islam preaches a version of Creation
5. Catholics try to persuade people to convert
6. Muslim terrorists convert reporters by holding gun to their heads
7. Christians use words to criticize art that mocks Jesus (like the urine art in NY museum)
8. Muslims riot and burn buildings and cars in response to cartoons in a Danish news rag; and killed a film guy in Netherlands for his film, and would kill Salmon Rushdie if they could find him
P.S. I wrote this to inflame the liberals and provoke numerous flames to prove my point.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Tusko, posted 09-18-2006 6:56 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by kuresu, posted 09-18-2006 9:03 PM ThingsChange has replied
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 18 of 75 (350113)
09-18-2006 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by ThingsChange
09-18-2006 8:26 PM


Re: Why Reason is with the Catholics
What, you want to prove liberals are irrational or something? All people are, that's a fact. There are things about us that are absolutely irrational, whether it be our fears (spiders, caves, heights, all other phobias) or our hopes (there is an afterlife, I will get out of here alive, war will end, et al). Can we reason? Sure. Do we? sometimes.
now then, on to your "proofs":
what the hell? They literally make no sense. When does crossing a border, where you can get killed or sent back, make sense? or is rational? Number two--no duh! of course muslim terrorists are muslims. What does evolution and catholics have to do with any of this? All religions teach a version of creation--whether it's a woman falling from the sky, being caught by animals that then make land, or a God who made the universe and everything in it in seven days. Again, rational, reason? Christians have reacted violently, jst not in our recent history. Learn about the KKK? Response to a precieved attack on their religion. Muslim extremist, meet KKK. KKK, meat muslim extremist. If you can get over the other following a false god, you'll find much in common, and get along. How are these proof's of the pope's reasoning about Islam? If anything, it says something about man in general under the influence of religion.
One last thing--is it liberal to wonder what Pyongyang plans on doing? instead of just waiting for them to do that something?
Oh, notice the total lack of flaming? Apparently we are capable of being rational at times.

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by ThingsChange, posted 09-18-2006 8:26 PM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 19 of 75 (350162)
09-19-2006 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by kuresu
09-18-2006 9:03 PM


Re: Why Reason is with the Catholics
kuresu writes:
When does crossing a border, where you can get killed or sent back, make sense? or is rational?
It obviously makes sense to 400,000 per year. Very few die crossing the border. It makes sense for the reasons I cited. The problem is that they are not embracing being an American. This will lead to a cultural divide that will eventually lead to division, in my opinion.
What does evolution and catholics have to do with any of this?
The topic is "reasoning". Let's see... between evolution and creationism, which would you say is more associated with testimony and which is more associated with reason?
Christians have reacted violently, jst not in our recent history. Learn about the KKK? Response to a precieved attack on their religion.
And didn't fellow Christians condemn the KKK and act to suppress it? Yes they did. I don't see Muslims organizing to do the same against their radicals.
How are these proof's of the pope's reasoning about Islam? If anything, it says something about man in general under the influence of religion.
The point being debated was not strictly about Islam, but about comparing Catholics with Muslims with regard to being more reason-able.
...is it liberal to wonder what Pyongyang plans on doing?
No. It's the response, that might differ.
The big worry of the year is Iran, not Korea (until their blackmail deal's warranty expires). I am afraid that Iran already has a deal with Russia and/or China to be an ally if the USA etc threatens an attack. ArmadilloDad senses weakness in the West to fight, so I think he is playing "appeasement acceptable" pawn moves to gain strength and support in Islam.
Oh, notice the total lack of flaming? Apparently we are capable of being rational at times.
Thank you. And, ditto for keeping the post not too long.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 20 of 75 (350165)
09-19-2006 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ThingsChange
09-19-2006 1:24 AM


Re: Why Reason is with the Catholics
The big worry of the year is Iran, not Korea (until their blackmail deal's warranty expires).
The big worry of the year is Bush. What hare brained scheme will he come up with next?
If you think Iran is a concern, you have the Bush mangling of foreign policy to thank for that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ThingsChange, posted 09-19-2006 1:24 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 21 of 75 (350166)
09-19-2006 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ThingsChange
09-19-2006 1:24 AM


Re: Why Reason is with the Catholics
The problem is that they are not embracing being an American. This will lead to a cultural divide that will eventually lead to division, in my opinion.
Your evidence that they don't assimilate?
The simple fact is, Mexican immigrants assimilate faster than almost any other ethnic immigrant group. Within a generation they're speaking English fluently; within another hardly any of them know much Spanish.
You need to turn off Glenn Beck, and if you're still listening to Michael Weiner you need to have your head examined. (Enjoying his show, that's the mental disorder.) The truth is that there's no divide; there's no future where the US becomes North Mexico.
I don't see Muslims organizing to do the same against their radicals.
How hard are you looking? It's all to easy for conservatives to say "I don't see..." when it turns out that they have absolutely no idea what's going on in those communities, or what's being debated in those circles. But then, if they didn't argue from a position of invulnerable ignorance, they just wouldn't be conservatives, would they?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ThingsChange, posted 09-19-2006 1:24 AM ThingsChange has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by ThingsChange, posted 09-19-2006 7:15 AM crashfrog has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 22 of 75 (350180)
09-19-2006 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
09-18-2006 7:03 PM


I'm not sure if I understood the bricks/chocolate/steel analogy. What I think you meant here is that chocolate is much more prone to melting and so wont be as good, so (I guess from the rest of your post) Islam is more analagous to chocolate and christianity to steel.
The way I see it, Christianity and Islam can both be steel or both be chocolate - it depends whose hands they are in (hows that for a broken analogy?!)
Fundamentally, neither of them are entirely compatable with reason because they posit the existence of a being or beings for whom there seems to be no evidence.
There are, however, many people with religious beliefs - Christian, Jew, Wiccan, Muslim, Hindu and Zorroastrian -- whose beliefs barely come into conflict with rationality. These people accept what mainstream science has to say about the universe, and they accept that there are other people with other religious beliefs which rest on foundations of faith no more substantial than their own. There are also people whose beliefs -- Christian, Jew, Wiccan, Muslim, Hindu and Zorroastrian -- who reject science, reject the possibility that they might be mistaken, and in my view fail to empathise sufficiently with people of other or no faith.
There is a continuum in every faith that stretches from the mildest moderate to the most vociferous radical. You agree with me here when you recognise that there are moderate Muslims and there are radical ones. What I reject is the main thrust of your post, which perplexes me. You seem to state that there is only one religion with a violence problem.
Check out these bad boys (and yes, it seems as though Aum Shinrikyo are arguably Buddhists!)
Religious terrorism - Wikipedia
Aum Shinrikyo - Wikipedia
With a quick search I can't find any decent looking links to Hindu terrorism/fanatics, but of course there are loads.
So what are you saying? That Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, and Christian violence isn't a problem? That it doesn't exist? I don't think that these kinds of terrorism are better or worse than Islamic terrorism. I just think they are examples of militant fundamentalists - and every religion has its militant fundamentalists.
If you consider Islamic fundamentalists to be significantly more of a danger to humanity than some other group, fair enough. I don't know how you would measure this comparative danger though. If, for the sake of argument you were to use death-toll to judge which group of militant nuts were the most dangerous then the results wouldn't necessarily single out Islamic nuts as the only significant danger to rational debate and secular principals.
Edited by Tusko, : a missing word!
Edited by Tusko, : Hidius spealing
Edited by Tusko, : "dangerous THEN the results", not "THAT"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 09-18-2006 7:03 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 23 of 75 (350181)
09-19-2006 5:06 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-18-2006 7:25 PM


Ok. You don't think that the pope expresses any sympathy for forced conversion to any religion; neither do I.
I'd be interested then to hear your interpretation of the quote I chose in my previous post from the speech, where he sets up a contrast between this Christian emperor's attitude towards forced conversion and Muslim teaching:
Pope Benedict writes:
For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.
To me that looks as though he is drawing a contrast between a religion that developed hand in hand with Hellenistic philosophy and rationality, and one in which rationality is of secondary importance after its God. Doesn't that sound like he is saying Islam is less rational?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 09-18-2006 7:25 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 09-19-2006 10:00 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 24 of 75 (350182)
09-19-2006 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by ThingsChange
09-18-2006 8:26 PM


Re: Why Reason is with the Catholics
I don't think that Islam is more compatable with reason. I think that fundamentalism of any religion is less compatable with reason, and moderatism (for want of a more nuanced vocabulary) of any religion is more compatable with reason.
However, I think that agnosticism or weak atheism is more compatable with reason than the most tenuous religious belief.
ABE: I don't think that your reasons why Catholics are rational and Muslims are irrational are very pursuasive: most days Muslims are kind to children and earn money and most days a Catholic murders someone in a fit of rage.
Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.
Edited by Tusko, : final para
Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.

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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 25 of 75 (350183)
09-19-2006 5:22 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
09-18-2006 7:25 PM


Regarding the ID business, I stand corrected. I must have read that Guardian article or heard someone mention it.
This quote from the linked article strikes me as a bit funny though...
Benedict and some aides have joined the debate in the past year, arguing for evolution as a scientific theory but against "evolutionism" ” which he calls a "fundamental philosophy ... intended to explain the whole of reality" without God.
...who believes in "evolutionism"? To me that sounds like one of those straw men that creationists use when they want to combine abiogenesis, evolution and the big bang into one super-enemy.
But thats a side note though.
Edited by Tusko, : A malapropism

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Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Nighttrain, posted 09-19-2006 6:06 AM Tusko has replied
 Message 27 by robinrohan, posted 09-19-2006 7:13 AM Tusko has replied

  
Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3994 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 26 of 75 (350188)
09-19-2006 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tusko
09-19-2006 5:22 AM


Rope a Pope
I think Ratzinger is a pretty wily codger. You don`t head up, for years,the modern version of the Holy Inquisition and Ecole Biblique (the body which controlled access to the DSS fragments for many years), without having both the knowledge and power to influence events. I expected a hardline stance with his election. While appearing to ease the role of the Catholic Church, he hasn`t really deviated from traditional values.

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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 75 (350195)
09-19-2006 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Tusko
09-19-2006 5:22 AM


...who believes in "evolutionism"? To me that sounds like one of those straw men that creationists use when they want to combine abiogenesis, evolution and the big bang into one super-enemy.
Evolutionism makes sense to me. Evolution suggests abiogenesis and abiogenesis suggests no God. Might as well go all the way.
ABE: I can see why the Pope would be leery of it.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 28 of 75 (350196)
09-19-2006 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
09-19-2006 1:37 AM


Assimilation
Your evidence that they don't assimilate?
If the immigration was legal, they would come in limited numbers that make assimilation the norm. However, with the invasion of so many illegal and uneducated Mexicans, the easier path for them is to retain their culture.
I live in Houston. I see, hear and experience Mexico. There are neighborhoods where there are so many Hispanics, they can live without speaking much English. I see more and more Mexican flags, and see interviews with more and more Mexico-loyalists no longer afraid to speak out about it. Don't tell me they assimilate in one generation, other than many of the women and children learning to get on the welfare rolls (50%), and the education system. Nearly 30% of prison population are not US citizens.
I am surprised that the liberals are so supportive of the illegals, who are almost all Catholic. So, get ready to hear more about the Pope over time, as the population shifts.
The way that liberals attack Christians and conservatives is good evidence that very different cultures clash (not to mention history is full of division among different cultures).
You are a classic liberal. You reinforce what Savage and others speak about.

'Liberalism is a mental disorder' - Michael Savage

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 29 of 75 (350204)
09-19-2006 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by robinrohan
09-19-2006 7:13 AM


I think you're right when you say evolution suggests abiogenesis.
But I still think that its reasonable for a religious person to believe that God, in his infinite cunning, put in place the conditions that allowed everything, the universe and life to arise.
I think that its a specific kind of theology that sees scientific enquiry as a threat. I think science and religious belief can be completely compatible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by robinrohan, posted 09-19-2006 7:13 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by robinrohan, posted 09-19-2006 8:06 AM Tusko has replied

  
Tusko
Member (Idle past 101 days)
Posts: 615
From: London, UK
Joined: 10-01-2004


Message 30 of 75 (350208)
09-19-2006 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Nighttrain
09-19-2006 6:06 AM


Re: Rope a Pope
I don't really know very much about the guy. I try not to base my opinions on the fact that he looks like the emperor out of Star Wars. I was just struck by what I considered to be a series of ironies in his speech, and by the fact that he must have known that what he said would be interpreted as insulting.
After actually reading the thing, his argument struck me as weak. This struck me as odd coming from such an old pro, so I started to see Machiavellian shadows dancing on the wall. Perhaps I misinterpreted?
Edited by Tusko, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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