We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline

There were other factors, were there not?An overextended empire.
Heavy taxes to support the military/industrial complex.
Armed forces which played policeman to the world.
Infighting countries which threatened the Republicans (er...Republic).
Corruption at the highest levels of government.
The filthy rich taking advantage of the dirt poor.
More?I suspect that morality is related to morale. What can we expect the level of morale to be when the vast majority of Americans are stuck in minimum wage jobs, two to a couple; barely earning a living; with little hope of owning a home; with increasing unemployment, while companies downsize and jobs are sent overseas. The middle class is disappearing and the lower classes (from whence cometh the majority of violent crime) will never experience the "good life" dangled before them daily on television and in magazines. UNLESS, of course, they are willing to compete with the lying, cheating, murdering nation which shares many earmarks with the declining Roman empire.Eh?db[venting my spleen this morning]------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Two quick things.I agree that the fall of the Roman Empire was a complicated matter. I wasn't suggesting what I was taught in public school was correct (although I'm sure the change in mentality of the citizenry, complicated as that might be, had to have something to do with it, because that affects everything).Second, you lost me a couple times in your post. The big one was the comment about competing with the "lying, cheating, murdering nation." Do you mean that the rich people are the "lying, cheating, murdering nation" that the poor have to compete with? I'm a little lost.Of course, perhaps the reason is that I don't really agree that people are that "stuck" here in America. I live in what is either the poorest county in America or close to it, and I don't have to take the keys out of the ignition anywhere in this county, so I don't believe that poverty has to produce crime. There's way more to it than that.I've also been on the hiring/interview end of starting jobs, and it's incredibly difficult to find someone who will just show up to work every day, much less work hard and do a good job for you. Experience has not given me much pity for the poor in America. I've seen way too few who are willing to develop good habits in order to change their situation.I'm speaking in general here. I've not only met some who did arouse pity, but I've put them in my house, fed them, given them jobs, etc. Same with the homeless. I've offered them a place to stay, help finding a job, etc., and I've had exactly one take me up on it. He lasted two days. He liked his homeless life better. It was more free. More power to him, if that's how he wants to live. I understand the desire to live that way, as I thought about that lifestyle, at least temporarily, when I was younger. But it's silly to feel sorry for a guy living how he chose to live.

I must wonder how many of these suicides are happening among Judeo/Christian's.I am also wondering how the suicide rates reflect city dwellers versus those who live in the countryside. Overcrowding has been implicated in many psychological abberations, antisocial behaviour and senseless violence among them.Hopelessness is certainly a factor in suicide. You may recall that at least one poor loser jumped from a window on wall street when the market crashed in 1929. Expectations of success provide hope. Headlines which tout an improved economy are no substitute for rewarding employment; employment which gives one the ability to afford marriage, children, and home he can call his own.Few of us can claim that hope with any confidence today.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

This is what I was disagreeing with in my last post. I still disagree.

Not at all. I was referring to the government. I'll not try to explain that. But the question of Rich versus Poor is a valid, and Classic, consideration.While it is true that some people seem to enjoy their poverty, I can't believe you'd say that about those who have lost good paying jobs to corporate downsizing or re-location of manufacturing facilities to overseas labor forces. I'm talking about people who want to work, who were working until the Big Boys gave them the shaft. There's nothing wrong with getting rich, but if one gets rich by lowering the workers wages for his own gain, or failing to raise the workers wage when prices and profits soar (a wildly popular thing to do in this country), then damn him! He is destroying lives.I know a lot of people who are good, regular, punctual and faithful long term employees of companies which treat them no better than the fly-by-night flakes they hire every other week. I've held many jobs in many fields. There are some excellent companies out there but they are few and far between.Corporate executives earn millions of dollars in bonuses by finding ways to reduce costs and increase profits. All too often this is done by grinding the faces of the poor. You are aware of this I am sure. It's all over the news ... Remember the S&L scandal? The Enron affair? These are just the tip of the iceberg.The battle between rich and poor has been going on from the beginning. The earliest codes of law known to man set forth statutes to protect the poor from the rich. Why do suppose they did that? Could it be because the poor tend to rise up and kill those who oppress them?db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

You are free to disagree, of course, but the question at hand is whether America's problems are the result of a decline in the influence of Judeo-Christian values. I don't think so. I believe that economic disparity is adequate motivation for political unrest. Remember the Bolshevic Revolution? Add to this: increasing taxes, flat-line or decreasing wages, and increasing unemployment. Then, perhaps, the "morality" of economic justice may kick in. Of course, you could claim that too as an aspect of J-C values.Remember the Boston Tea Party?db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Well, maybe I was off topic, because I wasn't addressing that question. I was only disagreeing with your one statement that to be able to afford a marriage, children, and a home was beyond the reach of a lot of Americans.I agreed with almost everything you said in your last couple posts. I think the increase in crime in this nation, as well as a lot of the other changes around us, are based on very, very complicated interactions. How much of it is TV? And by that, I don't mean what's on TV, but the very idea that a person would while away 20 to 40 hours a week watching performances. Before the 60's, no one did that. By the 70's, that was the norm. Now there's computer games, too. The 60's did not just bring the hippy culture, drugs, and abortion.Anyway, I won't blame America's problems on the loss of Judeo-Christian values, although I hold many of them. It's not anywhere as simple as that, in my opinion.OTOH, destruction of the nuclear family as a cause of a lot of American problems...? I think so.

Bingo! And that takes us right back to the economy.I remember a time when my father insisted that my mother take no work outside the home (late fities/early sixties). Then when he was injured on the job and layed up, they had no choice. Later, even though working again and with fewer children at home, they again had no choice. Mom had to work. They needed two incomes to make ends meet. They did OK on the two incomes in those days. Compared to today's reality, they did quite well.Need I mention latch-key kids and the devil's workshop?I am confident that much evil stems from a sick economy. Not enough to do, and too many people to do it. But those who do it earn so little for their effort that it takes two or three of them to earn a living wage.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

U.S. Census Bureau: Page not foundIf I am reading these stats correctly, it appears that they put somewhere between 30 and 50 million Americans below poverty level based on income. That's as many as 18% of us.The next question would be: How many of us clear the bar of poverty but still can't get a leg up on the American Dream?I'm workin' on it. The statistics I mean. Well, the other too. db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

The Following are quotes from the AFL-CIO.

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"In 2000, half or more of the workers in more than 50 occupations were paid poverty-level wages. A number of these jobspersonal/home care aides, child-care workers, home health aidesinvolve substantial responsibility for providing care for our children and elderly parents." Attention Required! | Cloudflare

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See the link for a breakdown of the occupations they are talking about.

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"The inflation-adjusted value of the minimum wage is 24 percent lower today than it was in 1979 and in real dollars, $5.15 an hour minimum wage is worth just $4.75. If the wage had just kept pace with inflation since 1968 when it was a $1.60 an hour, minimum wage would be $8.46 an hour in 2003." Attention Required! | Cloudflare

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That's more than I make now and the minimum wage has been increased twice since my last raise.

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"About 3.5 million workers worked full-time and year-round in 1999, yet they and their families lived in poverty.

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A 2001 U.S. Conference of Mayors study found that 37 percent of adults seeking emergency food aid were employed. Officials in 63 percent of the cities surveyed identified low-paying jobs as a primary cause of hunger.

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According to the National Low Income Housing Coalition’s September 2001 report Out of Reach, The national median housing wage, based on each county’s housing wage for a two-bedroom unit at the Fair Market Rent weighted by Census 2000 population estimates, is $13.87 an hour, more than twice the federal minimum wage of $5.15 per hour. This means that on average, there must be more than two full-time minimum wage workers in a household in order for the household to afford a two-bedroom housing unit at the Fair Market Rent.
" Attention Required! | Cloudflare

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Few of these workers are doing much more than dreaming about owning a home.That's the gist of it. There's a lot more where this comes from.db [edited to add content]
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Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?[This message has been edited by doctrbill, 08-03-2003]

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I suspect that morality is related to morale. What can we expect the level of morale to be when the vast majority of Americans are stuck in minimum wage jobs, two to a couple; barely earning a living; with little hope of owning a home; with increasing unemployment, while companies downsize and jobs are sent overseas. The middle class is disappearing and the lower classes (from whence cometh the majority of violent crime) will never experience the "good life" dangled before them daily on television and in magazines. UNLESS, of course, they are willing to compete with the lying, cheating, murdering nation which shares many earmarks with the declining Roman empire.

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The following data shows the number of robberies per 100,000 in the city of Detroit. From 1930 to 1940 was likely the decade of poorest economy the US has ever experienced with big time drought in the midwest some of those years and the great depression beginning in 1929. I was born in the middle of it and times were really bad. Note that the robbery rate stayed roughly static until the forties. In the next decade they about doubled and along comes the drugs, hippism, permiscous sex with moral decay in relation to all ten of the Biblical commandments and we see the results. As we see here rather than a poor economy, low wages and $$ in the pocket, as morals drop, up goes the crime. The standard of living and money in the pocket actually rose steadily from 1940 on. I couldn't find a chart for the nation but I suspect this gives us an idea of the whole picture.1930 104
1940 116
1950 125
1960 239
1970 1537
1980 1255
1990 1300
2000 870[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 08-03-2003]

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quote: buz:
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7. Incidence of drugs, crime and all the ramifications of these.
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Rrhain:
All declined to their lowest levels during the evil, "liberal" Clinton years.

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The president does not run the country. He does his part, but the congress and the states have more to do with policy than the administration. We had a Republican congress and lots of conservative governors who had more to do with the crime rate than the president, George Bush of Texas leading the charge with his tough on crime state of Texas.Btw, I too would like to know where you got your data. Take your time. We'll wait.

You'll excuse me if I don't put much stock in the AFL-CIO's opinion of who is being paid enough money. I also do not put much stock in the government's opinion of what poverty is.I moved to San Antonio in 1994 with three small children. I bought a 2-room tent to live in there. I got a job through Kelly Services based on my 80 wpm tying speed and familiarity with a few word processing programs. It was $6/hr. I did a good job for the guy, so he offered me a permanent job starting at $8/hr. He didn't want a guy as his secretary, though, so he was going to make me his warehouse supervisor, even though it would be a couple months until he had anything in the warehouse for me to supervise.I had three small children at the time and my wife didn't work. I got a small RV and moved into a $150/mo RV park.I didn't get to find out how far I could progess there, because I got called by the job I left in Sacramento to see if I would open a warehouse in Tennessee for them. They asked how much of a raise I would need to do that for them.I've had to climb that ladder repeatedly, dragging my wife around as I did, because I "felt led" to go here or there. I started at the bottom of the ladder one in Germany, twice in California, and once in Texas. Every time I had to start with minimum or near minimum wage jobs, but never once have I had to stay with them.I'm not a penny pincher. I'm really lousy at saving $5 here or $10 there, but I've met people who disciplined themselves enough to do it, and every one of them could put themselves in a position to own a house in America in a surprisingly fast amount of time. It won't be a $150,000 house in a suburb, but it sure looks to me, from experience, that there's not a state in the union that you can't own an acre with a mobile home on it within a few years by simply making a good effort at job hunting and then working hard at whatever job you do.Owning your own home is the right of hard, thrifty workers, and very, very few of them can't own their own home in America in a pretty decent amount of time if they'll take a few hardships along the way. Everyone else needs to be thank God if they end up owning a house, because they were just plain lucky.Or they could wish for the good ol' days, when people didn't live in houses with electricity, but built grass huts. Although if you could save up $1000, you could buy an acre of land in rural Tennessee or rural Texas and do that now.I'm sorry, but I just don't believe that owning a home in America is out of the reach of anyone who does a good job for an employer. I just don't see it happening anywhere around me, and, like I said, I live in about the poorest county in America.

truthlover responds to me:

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I'm not sure where Rrhain got his statistics

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Regarding crime in the US, the US Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics. Key Crime & Justice Facts at a GlanceIt contains graphs indicating rates of violent crime from 1973 to the present. You will see that crime rates were fairly flat during the 70s spiked in early Reagan, declined during his term, spiked against during Bush, then dropped like a stone during Clinton.

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To this day I still cannot comprehend the people who suggest that dangerous crime has not increased dramatically since the 50's.

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That's because the emotional phrase "dramatically" hides the complexity of the causes. In the 50s, there were a hundred million fewer people in the US. The definitions of crime have shifted greatly.To try and say that there is some "moral degradation" going on which is the reason why there is more per capita crime is to completely ignore everything else that has happened.For example, in the 50s and 60s, a person could feed a family of four on minimal-wage jobs. That hasn't been possible for years. What do you think might happen to the crime rate as the poor become poorer?

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If the standard is Judeo-Christian

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No such thing. Jewish tradition and Christian tradition are not the same. "Judeo-Christian" was a term coined by the Eisenhower administration to try and mitigate anti-Semitism, not because of any real connection between Judaism and Christianity.

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Now, Judeo-Christian morals are not even approved of (as much), much less followed.

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And it couldn't possibly be that the "Judeo-Christian" morality of sticking your nose into other people's business, forcing them to your personal religious opinion, when their behaviour has absolutely no effect upon yours, is actually a destructive social policy.

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In the early 70's, I was taught--in public school--that Rome's fall had much to do with the loose morals

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And you were taught horrendously wrong. Go read Gibbon. His Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire is still considered a definitive work.

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I can't imagine that being taught now

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Good.Because it isn't true. You don't think we should teach something that isn't true, do you?

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but I agree wholeheartedly with Buz that the overall "moral decline" has not been good for this nation.

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But you can't provide any concrete evidence of it.Again, when the country swings right, crime rates, teen pregnancy rates, drug use rates, etc. go up. When the country swings left, those things go down. So if you're going to complain about the "moral decline" of this country, then why aren't you blaming the conservative leaders who are at the helm?

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Our kids sit in front of electronic screens

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How is that a "moral" problem?

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way too many kids are raised in broken homes, and no matter what your opinion of divorce, it hurts kids.

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And how does encouraging gay people to get married cause divorce, exactly? Obviously, if gay people can't get married, they can't get divorced, but don't you think that making marriage something that is attainable by more people would be actually encouraging marriage rather than the opposite?

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And, in my opinion, we also have grown some pretty stupid ideas about the rights of criminals

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Yeah...that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing is so overrated.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

truthlover responds to me:

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I'd also like to know where Rrhain got his suicide rate statistics.

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The CDC and the National Institute of Mental Health.

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I've been poking around the internet for a few minutes and doing terrible at finding anything.

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Go to Google and search for "suicide rates us." The first link is the CDC. The second is the NIMH.The fifth (Suicide and Attempted Suicide: Methods and Consequences is an interesting one since it compiles suicide statistics for nearly the past 100 years, 1900 to 1994. It includes tables for international rates of suicide, too.Suicide rates have been fairly flat for the past few decades. They've been decreasing of late. is an interesting one since it compiles suicide statistics for nearly the past 100 years, 1900 to 1994. It includes tables for international rates of suicide, too.Suicide rates have been fairly flat for the past few decades. They've been decreasing of late.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM![This message has been edited by Rrhain, 08-05-2003]