The mystery of Job.

It may be helpful to understand that theology is based upon human experience with the powers that be. Monarchy is very much like the monotheism. There is One king, in whom is vested all the powers of the universe (within certain obvious limits). In fact, the royalty of ancient Israel were sometimes referred to as 'elohim'; a word most often translated "God." Thus, the psalmist quotes Jehovah's address to the royal house: It is not a far step to imagine that the organization of heavenly gods is similar to that among men. And, of course, men have women and children. Same reason a king, or president, needs someone to assess public opinion. The pollster is not an enemy of the state, even though he may bring an 'evil' report. Both, kings, and presidents, retain men who do their 'dirty work.' However evil we may think these men to be, they work for 'gods.' A test of faith is essentially a test of loyalty. Governments to this all the time, sometimes openly, sometimes secretly.db

Interesting. Both Prozacman's and Doctrbill's answers perfectly fit my theory that monotheism is in fact very unnatural system, very difficult for people to grasp and hold. (see my #61 post in http://EvC Forum: Is Akhenaton the founder of monotheism? -->EvC Forum: Is Akhenaton the founder of monotheism? for more info).[This message has been edited by Raha, 09-27-2003]

YHVH or is it Elohim? Good question. There are many names for God in the OT, and if you're aware of them, it gives a really good insight into the minds of the people at the time. First off, the -im suffix inicates a plural noun (seraph -> seraphim, cherub->cherubim, etc) - so, this really reads "Gods"; however, since he has become one God, they now declare this to be a rare exception. The fact that it was multiple gods is reinforced by God speaking in plurals ("we" will do something, they will be like "us", etc).Also, if you watch the names, some names for God turn into names for evil gods - for example, ba'al, which means (if I recall correctly) "master" (or is it "almighty"? I always get it confused with "adonai"), who later became one of the more despised deities. There are also lots of other names used, and to further it, they're regional, and sometimes those regions are seen as enemies to the authors of a given book.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Shaddai is translated "almighty" but it appears that "bountiful breast" or "multi-breasted" would be more accurate.db

Thanks There's too many names of God to keep track of easily... I should write them all down instead of having to either look them up or do them from memory every time I need to reference them.------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

Well, if it's true that the word Shaddai is more accurately translated "many-breasted", then that brings to my mind the Greek goddess of fertility Kybele-Artemis! It is well established that Greek culture influenced Israel thru works like The Book of Jubilees, Enoch, etc., and of course the Jews came in contact with the Greeks thru the Diaspora in the centuries around Jesus time. The name "Shaddai" may reflect that some Jews worshipped fertility goddesses against their prophets' wishes. I will attempt to find evidence, If I can, that Kybele-Artemis was one of these.[This message has been edited by Prozacman, 09-29-2003]

That had occured to me at one time but I didn't learn much about it. I am wondering why they would assign the name of a Greek Goddess to an apparently male figure of pre-Hellenic times. The full title was El Shaddai, El being a Canaanite deity. The ai ending may be the Aramaic suffix indicating a feminine noun; in which case it may indeed refer to a goddesses. I am curious about the history of this many breasted goddess. Did she just suddenly show up in Greek mythology? Or was she borrowed from someone elses culture? I am presently preoccupied with other things, so I hope you can rustle up more info on this.db

I'd be interested to know first of all where your source(s) for the "many-breasted" translation is from. I'll need to study that. Having read my NRSV and notes (Genesis 17:1), ElShad. is defined as "God Almighty", & the notes say, "This account from the priestly tradition is a parallel version of the Abrahamic covenant given in the early tradition(Gen.15:17-21); God Almighty meaning "God, the One of the Mountains", was a common name current in the pre-Mosaic period(Exod.6:2,3), perhaps brought from Mesopotamia into Palestine". Exod.6:2,3 seem to equate ElShad. with YHWH, but this could be the author syncretizing ElShad. into YHWH. So many ?'s, so little time! But of course much of this assumes that my NRSV's publishers were'nt biased. Anyway, if God Almighty really means,"God,the One of the Mountains", then that may explain where the ancient Jews get their admiration for mountains! But of course your translation of ElShad may also be correct, and there may be a real connection between him & Artemis. I'll keep you informed. In the mean time if anyone else has some info, please share it. Maybe Artemis is one of the Elohim. Could all these gods including Job's Satan have been combined, so to speak, into YHWH?

I've also read (but forgot the source) quite interesting theory which traced OT Satan to Sumerian god Enki (who was known trickster and mischiefmaker, but who cheated An and Enlil and saved people during Great Flood). As far as I remember this theory also claimed that over time cult of Enki merged with cult of Ishtar, so Satan is also (partialy) Ishtar, therefore female force in contrast with male YHWH (but if YHWH is "related" to Artemis, the whole story becames little bit too complicated )------------------
Life has no meaning but itself.

Thanks Raha. That appears to be another angle we can explore. If you can remember your source, then all the better! Along with Artemis, Enki, Satan, etc., I should be able to scour the local library for books & materials on how they may be related. I'll let you and other interested persons know of any progress on my part, and perhaps you may wish to contribute more if you find anything.

No, Wait; Maybe Artemis(with the many breasts) was not an original Greek invention. Maybe this fertility-mother-goddess came into the greek pantheon from the middle-eastern area called the "Fertile-Cresent". According to Cyrus Gordon and other archaeolgists, this is the area where some hunter-gatherers in prehistory began agriculture for the first time. The furthest western section of the Fert-Cres. was located in eastern Turkey around the prehistoric town of Catal-Huyuk that James Mallarrt(archeaologist) discovered and partially excavated. Artemis was originally worshipped as a goddess by the inhabitants of Catal-Huyuk(Atlas of Early Man, Jacqetta Hawkes, p.204). Get back to you soon!

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Originally posted by Raha

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I've also read (but forgot the source) quite interesting theory which traced OT Satan to Sumerian god Enki (who was known trickster and mischiefmaker, but who cheated An and Enlil and saved people during Great Flood).

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There are a number of interesting parallels to the OT and even gnostic overtones to be found in some of the ancient Sumerian tales as the following excerpts demonstrate.Adapa (Adamu) and the Food of Life:Summary: Adapa, or perhaps Adamu, had recieved wisdom from the god Ea (also called Enki), but not eternal life.Excerpt from tablet #1Wide understanding he (Ea, Enki) had perfected for him (Adapa, Adamu)
to disclose the designs of the land.To him (Adapa) he (Ea) had given wisdom; eternal life he had not given him.Excerpted from tablet #2(Ea speaking to Adapa)Adapa, before the face of Anu the King thou art to go
... to heaven.
When thou comest up, and when thou approachest the door of Anu,
At the door of Anu, Tammuz and Gishzida are standing . . .They will speak to Anu. A good countenance of Anu
They will show thee. When thou standest before Anu
Food of death they will set before thee,
Eat not. Water of death they will set before thee,
Drink not. Garments they will set before thee,
Put them on. . .
The counsel that I have given thee, forget not. The words
Which I have spoken, hold fast."(End of Ea speaking)To Anu . . . (t)hey (Tammuz and Gishzida) speak
"Why has Ea revealed to impure mankind
The heart of heaven and earth?
A heart ... has created within him, has made him a name?
What can we do with him?Food of life bring him, that be man, eat. Food of life
They brought him, but he ate not. Water of life
They brought him, but he drank not.Garments they brought him. He clothed himself.Anu looked at him; he wondered at him.
" Come, Adapa, why hast thou not eaten, not drunken?
Now thou shalt not live." . . .(Adapa answers Anu)
Ea, my lord, said to me: "Eat not, drink not."(Anu speaks)
Take him and bring him back to his earth.[from "Cuneiform Parallels to the Old Testament " by R.W. Rogers, 1912].The flood parallels are found in the "Epic of Gilgamesh":Summary: Ea (Enki) is bound by an oath not to reveal to mankind that a great flood will be wrought. Ea circumvents the oath by instructing Utnapishtim to go and stand on one side of a reed wall on a certain night. Thus, approaching the other side of the wall at the appointed time, Ea, ostensibly addressing the wall, relates the plans of the gods so that Utnapishtim can "just happen" to overhear.Excerpts from tablet XI:Their (the other god's) words he (Ea, Enki) repeats to the reed-hut:Reed-hut, reed-hut! Wall, wall!Reed hut, hearken! Wall, reflect!Man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu (i.e. Utnapishtim)Tear down (this) house, build a ship!Give up possessions, seek thou life.Forswear (worldly) goods and keep the soul alive!Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.[From: The Epic of Gilgamesh in Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament, James B. Pritchard, ed.; Princeton University Press, 1969][This message has been edited by Amlodhi, 09-29-2003]

I have been trying to find that reference to the multi-breasted one. I thought it was from a sermon online and I may or may not have found it again. I did find some other interesting stuff which I am posting to demonstrate the variety of opinions available.From a sermon:

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"El" means "God, the strong One" from Genesis 3, "the strong One." "El", "God, the Life Giver." "Shad, S-h-a-d," means, "breast, like the woman." "Shaddai" means, "breasted," plural. And God appeared to Abraham in the Name of God, the strong breasted One." Paragraph E-39

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From another sermon:

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The Hebrew name means God Almighty, literally God all-powerful and all-sufficient.

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From an ad for a book titled: El Shaddai,

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... El Shaddai - The God of more than enough, the All-Sufficient One!

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Decide for yourself. ‘Shad’ is Hebrew for breast. ‘Dai’ is Hebrew for plentiful. I see nothing in this (other than the word El), to suggest ‘Mighty;’ in which case El would have to serve both: Mighty, and God. That doesn't leave much for Shaddai. Evidently I am not the only one who sees the possibility of the plural suffix in this.An excerpt from a Bible Study

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In the year 250 B.C., a group of Jewish scholars translated the Scriptures into Greek. This version of the Bible is called the Septaugint. These scholars translated the Hebrew Shaddai into the Greek word ikanos which means "all-sufficient". The word Shaddai occurs some 48 times in the Old Testament and is always translated "almighty" in the King James Version. Now consider that fact that the Hebrew word shad is used 24 times and is always translated as "breast". In the same way that a mother’s breast is "all-sufficient" for her newborn’s nourishment, God is "all-sufficient" for His people. Hence, when we combine El (Almighty God) with Shaddai (All-sufficiency) we have "The Almighty God who pours out sustenance and blessing".

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And this, which may or may not be the reference I was thinking of earlier. It is an excerpt from the Edited Transcript of Conversation between Thomas & Margo Abshier, September 28th, 2000. http://www.naturedox.com/Theology/Word&Spirit.htm
Bold Emphasis of the multibreasted stuff is my doing.

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Thomas: ... God the Father has split himself, given the Masculine role to Jehova/Yeshua and taken on the motherly, nurturing, procreative role of El Shaddai (the multibreasted one). The mother was then impregnated with the Word, the seed, the directed organizing power of the Word, and from that union the offspring material universe was formed.

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Margo: Yes, and it was Jesus/Yeshua who was the Fathering role, since anything that came out of that union was out of Jesus' doing. He did the the Word and the sperm giving.

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Thomas: So, in a way Jesus/Yeshua was the Father, and now God the Father was now the Mother in return.

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Margo: When God the Father first showed Jesus how to be God, he said, I'm going to go down to this man Abraham and set up a covenant, and you watch how I do this, and I'm going to present myself as the multibreasted, large breasted provider mother God. So the first name the Jews knew for God, other than El, was El Shaddai (the multibreasted God). So, the whole covenant of the Jewish people is based on the motherhood of God. Then, when Moses went to the burning bush, ...

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Isn’t Burning Bush a kind of S.T.D.?db

Welcome to our Forum Amlodhi.Nice to meet another fan of Sumerian culture!db------------------
"I was very unwilling to give up my belief." Charles Darwin

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Originally posted by Prozacman

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I'd be interested to know first of all where your source(s) for the "many-breasted" translation is from. I'll need to study that. Having read my NRSV and notes (Genesis 17:1), ElShad. is defined as "God Almighty", & the notes say, "This account from the priestly tradition is a parallel version of the Abrahamic covenant given in the early tradition . . .

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I would also be interested in any sources regarding the "many-breasted" translation of shaddai. Although it is admitted that the meaning of shaddai is uncertain, it us usually thought to stem from the root shaddad (prop. burly, fig. powerful, impregnable)[from Strong's concordance].If it were not for the prohibitive syntax, I would almost suspect that shaddai was a construct noun form, i.e. "God of power".Also, I too would need to review sources but IIRC the mountain and breast connotations were, supposedly, symbolically derived. IOW, God was associated with the concept of power and impregnability. This concept was further enhanced by his appearing on mountains (which also implied power and impregnability). The merging of the two could have rendered the concept of "God Almighty" and "God of the mountains" virtually synonymous.Also, there was a close correlation in the imagery of breasts and mountains in the ANE. There are even today, mountains that are named, in arabic, "the breast".So, while I would be interested in any documented etymology of the term, it would also be interesting to determine the extent to which the connotations attributed to shaddai are due to the blending of concepts and imagery.Namaste'Amlodhi