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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions II
Admin
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From: EvC Forum
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Message 121 of 307 (47527)
07-26-2003 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by doctrbill
07-26-2003 2:40 PM


Culverin and Theologian63
Culverin and Theologian63 are likely not the same person.
However, there's a possibility, I'm not sure how large, that Rationalist and Theologian63 are the same person. They might just be members of the same subnet. Someone might want to check their profiles and some of their posts for similarities.
There's also a possibility, again I'm not sure how large, that joz and Culverin are the same person. Someone might also check this out.
------------------
--Percy
   EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by doctrbill, posted 07-26-2003 2:40 PM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by mark24, posted 07-26-2003 4:21 PM Admin has not replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 5195 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 122 of 307 (47531)
07-26-2003 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Admin
07-26-2003 2:53 PM


Re: Culverin and Theologian63
Admin,
Joz doesn't sound like Culverin at all... Joz isn't a christian or a creationist.
Mark

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Admin, posted 07-26-2003 2:53 PM Admin has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 123 of 307 (47593)
07-27-2003 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by doctrbill
07-26-2003 10:15 AM


Re: God lied?
Gee DocB,
Do you think Theo will be back to answer any of our replies? I was laughing so hard at his first post. How sanctimonious can you get to come onto a thread with over 60 posts and reply to the second one about no evidence?
Oh well...
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by doctrbill, posted 07-26-2003 10:15 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by doctrbill, posted 07-27-2003 6:29 PM Asgara has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 124 of 307 (47608)
07-27-2003 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Asgara
07-27-2003 4:31 PM


Re: God lied?
Sure glad you chimed in when you did. I didn't want to bother with his challenge but did enjoy announcing his upcoming difficulty. Wasn't sure he would consider the OT evidence valid anyway. Seems a lot of fundies don't like the OT very much. They take the parts that conveniently support their views and try to find a way to discount the rest. I suppose we all treat the Bible that way to some extent. I'm sure I do. Some subjects are too advanced, or too complex, for easy debate. Few scholars appear among the fundies and those who do pass quickly into the outlands of skepticism. I expect that some of our opponents are already on their way out of that darkness.
If any of those are reading this: The Unitarian Universalist Association of Congregations provides great fellowship for persons who still feel religious but can no longer believe what their mother taught them. Even atheists can be ordained ministers in this Church. It was a popular church for many of our founding fathers, I can tell you from experience, they're a pretty cool bunch; the Unitarians I mean; not that the founding father's weren't cool you understand. Unitarian Universalist Association | UUA.org
This has been an unpaid advertisement!
db
------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Asgara, posted 07-27-2003 4:31 PM Asgara has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 125 of 307 (47611)
07-27-2003 7:10 PM


The Theologian needs to deal with Mark 10:23 when the man-God declares that: Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."
God can do anything, but he cannot lie? Seems a bit of a crappy God to me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 12:23 AM Brian has not replied

Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 307 (47808)
07-29-2003 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Brian
07-27-2003 7:10 PM


323
Had you by any chance read the message 323 of "Biblical contradictions" till the end?It was the message that started the overall discussion.
Of course not or you had understand the question regarding the "Tree of Life".
Since man had sinned he cant come back to God without a strongh faith in him .
If you read the message you will see that Gods desire was that man would eat from the Tree of Life but not Adam himself.Jesus was with God in Heaven and the Bible even said that Jesus was dead since the beggining of the world(Dont remember the verse.Someone please help me ).This can be understanded using General Relativity.Abrahams sons were the chosen ones.
Why would God create the Tree of Life if he didnt wanna man to eat of it?
Ok,sometimes you didnt need to ask your mother what she wants because you already knows.Why?Because you live with her and have a good relationship with her.Then before the sin Adam and Eve had a relationship with God and they supernaturaly understands everything.
This happens to everyone that accepts Jesus by faith.We receive the Holy Spirit and as we live with God we start to understand His Will by REVELATION and not by INFORMATION.These are the keywords.
Of course we have to learn it gradually .
After all the Bible says that man were created at his image.
Bible here refers to his character.
But man was tempted by the serpent(that was POSSESSED by Satan)
to became equal to God in natural knowledge ,military power and monarchic power.
See this:
Have the Knowledge of Good and Evil=Being dead spiritually Ok?
Satan know they would die but only told them half the thruth.
And what happens with you? Are you blind?Everyday death is a reality that was bring to the world by Adam and Eve.Please if you are gonna refute this use some wise arguments instead of saying that we didnt saw your words.It is so evident i really dont understand why it should be false.And please dont use some stupid dictionary definitions.Your definitions even had not time connections with it.
I said Satan tells them half the thruth.
For example in our days he convince people to stole saying that they will be rich if they do so.In the other side God tells them they will go to Hell if they do so.Who is lying? No one.But Satan is only telling half the thruth .He also says that if you dont receive Jesus by faith your life will be easier but he dont wanna you to know you will go to Hell if so.
[This message has been edited by Newborn, 07-28-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Brian, posted 07-27-2003 7:10 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Asgara, posted 07-29-2003 12:45 AM Newborn has not replied
 Message 132 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 12:09 PM Newborn has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 127 of 307 (47810)
07-29-2003 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Newborn
07-29-2003 12:23 AM


Hi Newborn,
I'm sorry, but your post 323 in the other thread doesn't make much sense. As for the post I'm replying to...
If you read the message you will see that Gods desire was that man would eat from the Tree of Life but not Adam himself
It begs the questions...then what was the purpose of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
This can be understanded using General Relativity.Abrahams sons were the chosen ones.
What does general relativity have to do with this?
serpent(that was POSSESSED by Satan)
book, chapter, and verse?
Have the Knowledge of Good and Evil=Being dead spiritually Ok?
book, chapter, and verse?
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 12:23 AM Newborn has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 128 of 307 (47818)
07-29-2003 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by John
07-24-2003 9:56 AM


John responds to me:
quote:
quote:
As I have asked you many times: Beetaratagang or clerendipity?
Lol... indeed! Now, let me think....
Just some context, somewhat off topic:
I get these two words from an acting excercise in my intro acting class. In a scene, the characters want something...the "objective." These objectives can be mundane such as getting the other person to pick up a piece of paper or deep such as getting the other person to fall in love. To achieve these objective, the actor employs "tactics" which tend to fall into two categories: The positive, inclusive, friendly, nice type and the negative, exclusive, unfriendly, mean type. For example, if I want you to pick up the letter and read it, I might try to make you think that there is some wonderful news inside it that you simply must read immediately. Or, I might be forceful, snatch the letter, back you into a corner, and shove the letter in your face.
In order to explore the tactics, it can help to have a scene where you know what the goal is but you are not constrained by the text. Thus, you only have two words that you can use: Beetaratagang and clerendipity. One of them (I won't say which) is a positive tactic. The other is a negative tactic. You end up exploring tone of voice, physical positioning, timing of speech, etc.
Thus, we can see why Adam and Eve have a hard time. Even if they know the point behind the two words, they don't know what the words mean individually, so how can they possibly make an informed choice?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by John, posted 07-24-2003 9:56 AM John has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 129 of 307 (47820)
07-29-2003 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by truthlover
07-24-2003 12:15 PM


truthlover writes:
quote:
The thing about the serpent being satan was brought up several times. Christians believe the serpent was satan because the Bible says so twice in Revelation (12:9 and 20:2),
Um, not quite:
Revelation 12:9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 20:2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
The phrase, "that old serpent," is referring to the dragon. Dragons, being reptiles, are often poetically called serpents. It is not a reference to the serpent in the garden of Eden.
Again, it is apparent that the serpent in the garden of Eden is not the devil since god curses the serpent, talking about how humans will always hate snakes forever more. "Dust you shall eat," and all that. How can you do that to a supernatural being? No, that's what you do to a biological being like any of the other animals.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by truthlover, posted 07-24-2003 12:15 PM truthlover has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 130 of 307 (47821)
07-29-2003 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Theologian63
07-24-2003 2:03 PM


Re: God lied?
Theologian63 writes:
quote:
God CANNOT lie.
That isn't what the Bible says.
1 Kings 22:23: Now, therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2 Chronicles 18:22: Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
Jeremiah 20:7: O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.
Ezekiel 14:9: And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.
2 Thessalonians 2:11: For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Theologian63, posted 07-24-2003 2:03 PM Theologian63 has not replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 131 of 307 (47826)
07-29-2003 3:34 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by mike the wiz
07-25-2003 1:16 PM


mike the wiz writes:
quote:
what it shows is that text in genesis shows us the serpant was indeed crafty and had BAD intentions for Adam and Eve.
Why? It isn't like the serpent told them to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. He simply pointed out that the consequences of doing so were not what god had said they would be. Neither god nor the serpent said that the consequences of eating from the tree would be that they would be kicked out of the garden, that god would curse them, etc., etc.
After all, why bother with kicking them out and cursing them? According to god, they would die that very day.
Hmmm...let's consider a possibility: The serpent has eaten from the Tree of Knowledge. Thus, knowing good from evil, he would be shocked to hear that god told Adam that if you were to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, you would die that very day. It didn't happen to him. And thus, anybody who would lie to an innocent can't be good, as anybody who knows the difference between good and evil will tell you. Therefore, he decided to clean up god's lie with the truth.
But notice, he still doesn't tell Eve to eat from the tree. He simply says that the dire consequences spelled out by god aren't true.
quote:
If it had good intentions it would have said 'Do as God says'
Even when god is lying to you? Why would anybody counsel somebody to follow a lie? I seem to recall a commandment from god of "Thou shall not bear false witness." Does that not apply to god?
Besides...for the umpteenth time, the serpent didn't tell Eve to eat from the tree. Show me where he does.
quote:
because then they would not have been miserable and cast out of the garden.
Says who? God certainly didn't say that. Instead, god said that if they were to eat from the tree, they would die that very day. Why bother with kicking somebody out of Eden and cursing them if they're going to die right then and there?
It's very simple: God said the consequences of eating from the Tree of Knowledge is death right that selfsame day.
Instead, the real consequences of eating from the Tree are that you become as gods, knowing good and evil, and then god comes along and throws a hissy fit.
So god was completely and utterly wrong in his description. The serpent was accurate, but not precise enough.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by mike the wiz, posted 07-25-2003 1:16 PM mike the wiz has not replied

zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 132 of 307 (47891)
07-29-2003 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Newborn
07-29-2003 12:23 AM


quote:
This happens to everyone that accepts Jesus by faith.We receive the Holy Spirit and as we live with God we start to understand His Will by REVELATION and not by INFORMATION.These are the keywords.
How come we still have so many people claiming that observation of nature should lead us to God, then?
quote:
But man was tempted by the serpent(that was POSSESSED by Satan)
There's zero scriptural basis for that one. If it were vital for us to know that the shining angel who rebelled against God were wandering around the garden in the shape of a snake, it would have taken very little effort for the author of Genesis to tell us. He (or she) didn't.
Besides, if the serpent was possessed, what he did wasn't his fault. However, the serpent, and not Satan, was cursed in a physical manner that describes snakes to this day - crawling on their bellies.
quote:
Have the Knowledge of Good and Evil=Being dead spiritually Ok?
So God is spiritually dead now? He himself said that Adam and Eve had become like him, having the knowledge of good and evil. You have the knowledge of good and evil, yet you claim to be no longer spiritually dead. You just shot yourself in the foot pretty badly.
quote:
Satan know they would die but only told them half the thruth.
Satan is not in the story, and they did not die. The word used has been demonstrated to connote a very physical death.
[This message has been edited by zephyr, 07-29-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 12:23 AM Newborn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 10:41 PM zephyr has replied
 Message 134 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 10:52 PM zephyr has not replied

Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 307 (47939)
07-29-2003 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by zephyr
07-29-2003 12:09 PM


Hey why dont you read a text till the end? That is the correct thing to do.You can not comment some piece of text without the entire text.That is because the answer to some question might be in another part of the text.That is called contextualization.
Go read my 323 message of the previous thread TILL the END.
Ok.I HAVE SAID THAT before the fall there were no death but after there is.Dont we SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE death in our days? .Go to a cemetery please.Did you see in the cemetery that God didnt lie?
ITs EVIDENT.Your dictionary definitions have no time conection .Somewhere in the epistles there are a reference of Satan deceiving Eve.
For the other user i have to say that people who receive Jesus by faith understand the spiritual things but the other ones needs scientifical explanations if they cant achieve it by faith(Jesus said that these ones are not well-ventured).For example Thomas had not faith and Jesus had to show his hands to him.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 12:09 PM zephyr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Asgara, posted 07-29-2003 11:02 PM Newborn has not replied
 Message 136 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 11:16 PM Newborn has replied

Newborn
Inactive Member


Message 134 of 307 (47941)
07-29-2003 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by zephyr
07-29-2003 12:09 PM


Hey why dont you read a text till the end? That is the correct thing to do.You can not comment some piece of text without the entire text.That is because the answer to some question might be in another part of the text.That is called contextualization.
Go read my 323 message of the previous thread TILL the END.
Ok.I HAVE SAID THAT before the fall there were no death but after there is.Dont we SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE death in our days? .Go to a cemetery please.Did you see in the cemetery that God didnt lie?
ITs EVIDENT.Your dictionary definitions have no time conection .Somewhere in the epistles there are a reference of Satan deceiving Eve.
For the other user i have to say that people who receive Jesus by faith understand the spiritual things but the other ones needs scientifical explanations if they cant achieve it by faith(Jesus said that these ones are not well-ventured).For example Thomas had not faith and Jesus had to show his hands to him.
Of course the serpent was doomed .All nature and Cosmos were doomed after all and it wasnt their fault(Even inanimated things were doomed).
God isnt spiritually dead but the arrogant desire to become like God in military and monarchic power brings spiritual and material death to people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 12:09 PM zephyr has not replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 135 of 307 (47942)
07-29-2003 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Newborn
07-29-2003 10:41 PM


Ok.I HAVE SAID THAT before the fall there were no death but after there is.Dont we SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE death in our days? .Go to a cemetery please.Did you see in the cemetery that God didnt lie?
Newborn, I'm not going to reply to your part about a previous message in another thread, because it wasn't addressed to me. But I will say that you obviously don't read all the threads either. The question isn't if people die now, it is "Where in Genesis does it say that they were not going to die then?" Since they had not yet eaten of the tree of life, obviously they were going to die. God was terrified that they would eat of the tree of life and become immortal.
Somewhere in the epistles there are a reference of Satan deceiving Eve.
If you are talking about 1 Tim 2:14, it just says that Eve was deceived, not who supposedly did it. (it hasn't been shown yet that Eve WAS deceived)
For the other user i have to say that people who receive Jesus by faith understand the spiritual things but the other ones needs scientifical explanations if they cant achieve it by faith(Jesus said that these ones are not well-ventured).For example Thomas had not faith and Jesus had to show his hands to him
Yes, it's easy to say that if you already believe then it's easy to believe. The problem with your example is that in it Jesus DID show Thomas. Nothing has been shown to me, I don't know about anyone else here. The scientifical (sic) explanations lead in the opposite direction.
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Newborn, posted 07-29-2003 10:41 PM Newborn has not replied

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