What is the Song of Solomon?

The Song of Songs is about the joys to be found in bodies and bellies and thighs. It's also about trees and gardens and animals and fields. Take all the images together and you have lovers exploring their own private garden.The Song shares that image with Genesis 2: a naked couple in their garden. In human love, suggests the Song, a great deal of the brokenness in life is transcended. Paradise is restored.Another feature both texts share: a deity who is discretely absent.God leaves lovers to explore their gardens in privacy.Early in the poem's history, theologically minded readers went on to make their own metaphors. For them images of human love were already being put to work to represent God's love for his people. The association came readily for them and no doubt helped lubricate the poem's entry into the canon.Symbols do this. They invite associations.The Song itself remains erotic love poetry. It doesn't beat around the bush. It speaks of its subject frankly and through a series of sensual metaphors.It is a ravishing, delicious book. However the Song came to be in the Hebrew canon, its presence there speaks well of the people who included it.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.

Since the experience of God subjectively is a pure enjoyment, there is this Old Testament book which foreshadows this destiny of the redeemed.Song of Solomon is a kind of preview of a few NT passages like these startin with what John the Baptist said concerning Christ:"You yourselves testify of me that I said, I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before Him.

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He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the freind of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This joy of mine therefore is made full.

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He must encrease but I must decrease." (John 3:38-30)The Bridegroom is Jesus. The Friend of the universal BRidegroom is John the Baptist. Disciples were leaving the following of John and going after Jesus. John was not concerned or jealous. He said that he must decrease and that the Bridegroom Jesus must encrease.People being added to Christ was therefore the formation of the Bride of Christ and was the encrease of Christ.Then we have Paul saying that the disciples were presented by him as virgins of pure love to Jesus:"For I am jealous over you with a jealousy of God, for I betrothed you to one husband to present you as a pure virgin to Christ." (2 Cor. 11:2) Here again God incarnated as a man Jesus Christ is depicted as the one Husband to the pure collective virgin wife betrothed to Him in eternal marriage.We also have the teaching parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew 25 concerning the loving prepardness for His second coming.And the Bible concludes with a marriage of Christ and the New Jerusalem, a corporate Wife made to match Him in splendour (1 John 3:2):"And I saw the holy city New Jerusalem, coing down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)"And one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls ffull of the seven last plagues came and spoke with me, saying, Come here; I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.

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And he carried me away in spirit onto a great and high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God." (Rev. 21:9,10)The climax of human history is with this aggregate collective "city" the holy New Jerusalem. She is the bride of the incarnate and redeeming God - the Lamb, Jesus Christ.This understanding of God's eternal purpose is the key to intepreting the luxurious and sensous symbolism in the Song of Songs.The neck, breasts, navel, hair, locks, cheeks, etc. are all sensous symbols depicting some aspect of this consummate Bride which the redeeming God is forming for Himself.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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This understanding of God's eternal purpose is the key to intepreting the luxurious and sensous symbolism in the Song of Songs.

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The neck, breasts, navel, hair, locks, cheeks, etc. are all sensous symbols depicting some aspect of this consummate Bride which the redeeming God is forming for Himself.

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Oh hogwash. It is a human love story. Trying to twist it into some kind of eternal purpose turns it into a theological seminar. Contrary to the beliefs and wishes of the fundies, sex is not just for procreation.

Reply to: JaywillRevelation is the only book in the Bible with the "everlasting good message" (Rev 14). This means the New Covenant.The apostles wrote during the Old Coveant, see: 1Cor 9.20-21.Jaywill has mxed OT and NT as though they are one. This is from the Pope and the First Dark Ages (AD 500-1000).sl33w

All Christians mix the two up, they think Jesus is all over the OT and go to extreme lenghts to try and demonstrate this.They insist that someone who does not resemble the messiah in any way is actually the promised Jewish messiah, while any semi-objective reader can see Jesus fulfilled none of the requirements.

Hi Jay,You seem to have given the subject considerable thought. Perhaps you can answer a few questions I have about how this woman is a metaphor of the Church.Could you please explain why the woman is "a wall" and her breasts its "towers?" Does the Church need to have large breasts?Can you identify the "little sister" in the story and tell us why she "has no breasts?" Does she represent a different Church?Can you tell us how the Church is like a palm tree and why Christ would want to climb that tree?Can you tell why the Church's breasts are compared to "clusters of dates" and why Christ is looking forward to grasping those clusters?Please tell us why the breasts are depicted as symetrical and bouncing (like a pair of playful fawns). What is the 'spiritual' significance of the bouncing?Please explain what is meant by "joints of the thighs." You might also explain why various translators render the expression differently.Can you tell us why the word "door" has been supplied by translators in that line where the woman talks about "the hole" where her lover puts his hand?Can you explain what is meant by the "spiced wine" which drips from the woman's fingers when she awakes from dreaming of her lover?Most importantly: Where exactly are these charms located on the body of the Church? and What exactly will Christ be doing when he climbs that "tree" and grabs those "clusters" and goes down to the "orchard" for to smell the spiced "wine?"

I do not spend a great deal of time in Song of Solomon. However I am aware of two or three in depth spiritual treatments of this book which I have come to respect.Now I'm giving you the benefit of a doubt that you are genuinely interested in how in the world some of these passages could possibly be interpreted in a Christian theological context.Probably, I will utilize or quote portions of the Footnotes written by Witness Lee in the Recovery Version Bible which serve as study notes to this book. These comments will not be developed but concise. Which usually means they are easy targets for objection from the skeptical.I will have to make scattered and somewhat random references to a book which is treated as a progressive development. "I am a wall, and my breasts are like towers; Then I was in his eyes like one who has found peace" (SS 8:10)Here the lover of Christ testifies that she is a sanctified one. The symbol of the separating wall suggests sanctification. That is set apart as holy unto Christ.The church should have an open door to seeking sinners. The church should have a wall to keep out sinful living.The large breasts may symbolize that faith and love have been developed in the Christian in contrast to a younger more immature Christian.Breasts like "towers" suggest the guarding of faith and love for Christ as a treasure of value. For example, Paul's exhortation "Guard the good deposit through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us. (2 Tim. 1:14)In the eyes of her Lover the Savior she is as one who has obtained "peace" based upon her sanctification - "And may the God of peace sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thess. 5:23)Peace cojoins the blessing of God's sanctification of His lovers. The previous verse to First Thess 5:23 speaks of abstaining from every form of evil.This sanctification is beautiful in the eyes of Christ. The the separating wall and the beautiful breasts like vigilant towers speaks of the lovers attention to cooperate with the sanctification of her being in Christ's salvation. "We have a little sister, And she has no breasts; What shall we do for our sister on the day when she is spoken of?" (SS 8:5)Since the lover has matured in life at this stage of the book, she is prepared for rapture. She is concerned about younger lovers of Christ whose faith and love - "breasts" (See 1 Tim. 1:14)have not yet matured.Towards the end of this church age a minority of the believers have matured and are ready for rapture. They will be concerned for those fellow believers who also pursue the Lover Christ yet they are still immature."If she is a wall, We will build on her a battlement of silver; And if she is a door, we will enclose her with boards of cedar." (8:9)This building matter has to do with older Christians building up younger Christians into the Body of Christ. The church is a corporate building as the house of God.If the younger ones under the building and edification of the shepherding older Christians is a wall - signifying separation of sanctification - the older ones will build them up based on the redmeptive work of Christ, signified by "silver".Though the younger ones are immature they are made to stand firmly on the eternal redemption of Christ. He has purchased them and will complete His work within them to perfect them. Older Christians must always cause new believers and younger disciples to have a firm foundation in the eternal redemption of Christ.This is a brief comment.If the younger less mature Christian is a door that means that they are functioning as an entry for others into the church. Sometimes younger ones are much more successful at inviting others to be saved than older ones are. I led many more people to Jesus as a young person than I did after 35 years of age.At any rate, if the younger disciple is a "door", facilitating the entry into the church of many of their friends, for example, the lover of Christ will perfect that one by building a protective enclosure around them.The boards of cedar speak of the heavenly and glorfied humanity of Jesus (Matt. 26:64; ACts 3:13). The protective enclosure of teaching the believer to live by the fine heavenly and glorified humanity of the man Jesus. This indicates that the more mature lover of Christ knows how to build up the younger one with the proper material according to their particular need.The younger one is helped in the development of Christ filled humanity which is transcendent and proper for the building of the church. Continued below.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

"This your stature is like a palm tree, And your breasts are like clusters. I said, I will climb the palm tree; And I will take hold of its branches; And let your breasts be like clusters of the vine, ..." (7:7,6a)I will have to do more research on this passage. I will try to get back to you on this matter latter. It would be helpful if you referenced the passage. It would save me a little time.I will return to this matter after further study.

"How beautiful are your footsteps in sandals, O prince's daughter! Your rounded thighs are like jewels, the work of the hands of a skilled artist." (7:1) "Sandels" relates to gospel preaching. The beauty of the co-working lover in Christ is praised in her gospel preaching (footsteps in sandels - Romans 10:15)."How beautiful are the feet of those who announce the news of good things!"The lover is beautiful because she co-works with Christ in the spreading of His Gospel.She is also beautiful in her standing power signified by the thighs. The mention of jewels in connection with the thighs means that her standing power is the result of the transformation work of the Holy Spirit. See 2 Cor. 3:18.The Holy Spirit has transformed the lover of Christ to stand against the tide of the sinful age. The lover is beautiful in her standing power and in her going forth to preach the gospel. She is ravishing in the eyes of Christ.Again verses 1-5 are the speaking of a third person the Holy Spirit who speaks is Christ in another form and is also one with the church. Spirit and Bride speak together - Rev. 22:17.The skillful transforming work of the Spirit qualifies the lover to co-work in the vinyards with her Lover.The beauty of the naval and belly refer to the inward parts which are filled up with the divine life received through drinking Christ's blood (wine) and eating of His flesh (wheat) by faith (lilies)."Your naval is a round goblet that never lacks mixed wine; and your belly is a heap of wheat, fenced in by lilies." (7:2)"Your two breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle." (7:3)This refers to her beauty in her active ability to feed others in a living way (John 21:15,17 compare SS 4:5). It is most ravishing to Christ that His lover is also able to pass on the spiritual life through his or her shepherding and feeding care of others. The lover is truly doing the same work as Christ in ministering the divine blessings of spiritual life to others.The breasts as gazelles probably speak of the lover's agility and flexibility to nourish others right where they are in thier situations.The disciple is agile and always ready to minister the Holy Spirit. Ths ability is attractive to Christ as a man would be attracted to the beautiful breasts of a romantic pursuer. Latter I may be able to speak to it briefly below.

At this point I think a further word on the feeding breasts might help.When Peter denied the Lord Jesus three times Jesus restored him by thrice telling Peter to prove his love for Him by feeding His sheep or His lambs.Peter do you love me more than these? Was asked three times to the dejected Peter. Peter's reply was the he did love Jesus and Jesus knew it. Jesus repeated again three times this exhortation in essence:"Peter, I know that you denied me. But now you are forgiven. If you really love Me Peter, I want you to show your love by feeding my other disciples. PLease Peter, show me that you love Me by feeding and shepherding My sheep." See John 21:15-25)Christ is now within the disciples. He has limited Himself to them. His earthly ministry has completed. Now it is time for Him to continue with His heavenly ministry. That is His further ministry from heaven. In this He is depending on His lovers to shepherd, nourish, and feed His people.To feed is not simply to teach. To feed is to impart something of hygenic spiritual health of life though fellowship, example, teaching, encouragement, exhortation, intruction, prayer.It is easy to teach people knowledge. To feed people spiritually requires that you live the life you are speaking about. You feed from your own experience of living Christ.It is beautiful to Christ in heaven when His lovers on the earth are able to feed His other sheep. God makes this known to His people in the Song of Songs by the praising of the breasts of the woman. In this case the breasts signify the feeding and nourishing of the woman of the young.Remember that Peter was somewhat of the leader among the disciples. It was very important for him to set the example. Jesus wanted Peter to express his love for the Master by feeding His sheep. In this way you should see the NT confirmation of the symbolic language in the Song of Songs.In one portion the expositor mentioned breasts in relation to faith and love. In another portion the breasts were related to feeding. This is really not a contradiction. It is the disciple who has faith and love in a subjective way who is perfected and qualified to feed the other disciples, especially the younger disciples.This is utterly beautiful to the Bridegroom Christ.When reading a Christian book it is good to ask God if you are being fed or just taught. There is a time for just gathering information. But for real life development more than correct data is needed. One must be feed, nourished spiritually. One's hunger for the divine must be met and one's thirst for the Spirit must be quenched.It is beautiful in the eyes of Christ when His people are mature enough to be able to feed others.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

A brief word I may give." My beloved put his hand into the opening [of the door], And my inner parts yearned for him.

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I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dripped with myrrh, My finger with liquid myrrh, Upon the handles of the bolt.

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I opened to my beloved, But my beloved hand withdrawn; he was gone. My soul failed when he spoke; I sought him, but found him not; I called him - he answered me not." (5:4-6)The beloved's Lover shows His pieced hand. That is the hand pierced with the nails of His crucifixion. He shows this hand through her narrow opening so that her inner parts are moved for Him.Here Christ reminds the narrow hearted one that He died for that one. The love of His sacrifice contrains the seeker in the inward parts to long after such a Savior. He was crucified for her.The lover hastens to open to Christ to show her appreciation for His death on her behalf. The heart is touched. The constricted heart is softened and the lover's inward parts long for Christ Who has died by crucifixion for her. She wants to show appreciation for His sweet death for her (myrrh).The apparent hiding of the Beloved has to do with Christ wanting the seeker to go deeper in the divine life. He wants the seeker to pursue Him on a deeper level still. Now that her hunger has been stirred up for Christ it seems that He draws her on by disappearing.We are ever called by Jesus to sink deeper and deeper in love with Him. We not only appreciate that He died for us. We are to go on that He lives now in us.This is very experiential teaching which the non-believer in Christ has the adventure to learn only after being saved by Christ.IF you recall early in the book the lover pursues the King and is compared to the chariots of pharoah. This means that though the newly saved person loves Jesus he still is carrying quite a bit of the world along with him in his immaturity. The chariots of pharoah there signfy the world.The new believer in Jesus loves Jesus. But she still has a love for the things of the world - pharoah's chariots. The Song of Songs includes passages about the progression and progress of the lover of Christ to deeper and deeper levels of pursuit of Christ as the unique Lover.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Well, Jay, You have clearly given this some reading but I was hoping you had given it some thought.The problem with parroting someone else's words is that it makes one sound like a parrot. And then, when rebuttal comes, as it will, one has to try and defend someone else's scholarship; someone else's thoughts; someone else's imagination. That is what it is, you know? You are presenting someone else's thoughts. I'm not very interested in someone else’s thoughts, Jay. I am interested in your thoughts. As you have suggested, that which you are quoting invites refutation. It deserves refutation if for no other reason than it is doing back flips to avoid facing the simple fact: that sexual entertainments are a part of god-given life and as such are celebrated in the Holy Bible. That said. I am interested in your personal opinion, if you have one, regarding why it is that such a musky smelling, slippery fingered, titty bouncing, woman climbing, wet dream fantasy should be flaccidified by suggesting that it is some kind of moralism about Jesus having a 'spiritual' orgasm in mixed company. Do you know the etymology of the word "ravishing?"Think about this for a moment. How about

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"I am tall, and strong like a wall; and my breast are like towers; that's what he likes about me."

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The Hebrew itself is debatable here so I try to find something which makes sense to me. The above is one of a number of variations I came up with nearly a decade ago. I'm not really satisfied with it but believe me, the 'authorized' version doesn't work for me at all. A wall is tall and strong. When viewed from a low angle the breasts on a woman's chest may resemble battlements on a castle wall. This view of feminine beauty is a perennial favorite for modern photographers. There is nothing in the text to suggest that this is a metaphor, an allegory, an analogy or some kind of lesson in how to get along with someone who has not yet been born and will not be born before these players are dead.Walls may be said to be a symbol of sanctification, if you don't care what you say. Where is that coming from? Not the text. Not the Bible. Somebody's wild imagination. That's where its coming from. That's the problem with trying to fit someone else's brain into your own head. It doesn't fit right. You come off walking and talking like a Frankenstein monster. Forgive me if you are virginal. If you are, then we shouldn't be having this conversation. If, on the other hand, you have some sexual experience then you should be able to relate to this collection of erotic verses. You could say that; If you don't care what you say. In the real world breasts symbolize nurture, if you need them to symbolize something. The Bible utilizes breasts for that symbology and it is quite obvious when it is doing so. It is also obvious when it is not doing so. But breasts have a life of their own. They are what they are. Ready made baby bottles and cheap entertainment for men (and women). They don't really need to symbolize anything. The Hebrew here is difficult to translate. What we are looking at is poetry in a long dead language. Poetry is difficult to comprehend even when you live under the same roof as the poet. We can be fairly sure that one of the speakers is a strong woman who is proud of her sexual charms. We can be fairly certain that one of the passages describes an exotic dance, a strip or strip tease. We can be fairly certain that the woman who hurries out of bed and gets "liquid myrrh" on the door handle has been indulging a sexual fantasy.I suspect that the author you quote has a problem accepting the realities of sexual joy. I hope you don't intend to become like him.PS. Where does this erotic poem talk about the dead guy with the nail holes in his hands? Chapter and verse please.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This morning I will not have too much time. But I will speak to this first point.It is true that one can be challenged when one speaks beyong his personal experience. I am aware of that. I admit that this kind of exposition I learned from others.So I appreciate that warning. Having said that there is the other side. Jesus came in the Gospel of Matthew and started His speaking ministry saying exactly the same thing that John the Baptist did - "Repent for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." (Matt. 3:1,2 compare Matt. 4:17)The Son of God did not find it wrong to follow someone else's speaking. Why should I ? I am quite concerned about "teaching diffferently" from the prophets and the apostles of Christ.My aim is not to be able to stand up and say "Look everyone, I can say something original!" My concern is to follow the New Testament ministry of the apostles and those who are vertually doing the work of apostles in building up the church of Christ.We have a sense about the teaching which is anointed of the Holy Spirit and used by God to build up the church. When I have the conviction that such a speaking is blessed of God to enlighten, edify, and nourish the church or lead sinners to Jesus, I have no problem to speak the same thing.I have not yet finished your response above. And there are more things I would like to write on your questions,, if not for your benefit then for the benefit of some truth seeking others.As far as defending what did not come out of my original teaching, I am not too concerned about that. I tend to check evrythhing with the word of God first before excepting it.For one thing I would endorse many of these points because they HAVE become mine in experience to some degree. Though can't say I personally discovered some of these matters I can say someone else's labor does confirm what I have learned. It echoes my experience. It also echoes things I have learned elsewhere in Scripture.I am not afraid to follow others when I sense that that teacher is speaking according to the truth of God's new testament economy. You may call this "parroting". I call it following the brothers in the Body of Christ.Paul's words to Timothy come to mind."Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you may charge certrain ones not to teach different things nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies which produce questionings rather than God's economy which is in faith." (1 Tim. 1:3,4)These teaching on the Song of Songs are centered on God's economy which is in the realm of faith for the nourinshoment of faith, encouragement of faith, and building up of faith. If one's faith in Christ is encreased or helped by such expositions that is wonderful. And it is safe even if some aspect is not 10000% defensible against the cynical attacks.If you work hard enough you can probably find some arguable problems many expositions much less allegorical than this. "We know in part and prophesy in part" (1 Cor. 13:9) I would suggest you simply prove all things and hold fast to that which is good in what I explained.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

If I was afraid of your refutation then I would not have written anything about it in the first place.If you would like to only derive from the Song of Songs "musky smelling, slippery fingered, titty bouncing, woman climbing, wet dream fantasy" that is your right to do so.Some of us apprectiate the spritual ministry which we are convinced is enfluenced by the wisdom of the Spirit and conveyed with spiritual words to those with spiritual life. See First Corithians.Generally about these things I think that if it causes one to love Christ more and depend on God more than it is at least safe teaching. IF it causes you to have a cold heart towards CHrist and to be independent from God then there is something wrong with the teaching no matter how "good" and scholarly it seems to appear.You have the right to say that you see only "smut" in the Song of Songs. Actually, I don't like to put it that way because Sex is God's creation and He's the expert on it. It is clean and pure in the proper God ordained context. That one book in the Bible contains some intoxicating poetry on sexual enjoyment doesn't shock me.I do believe that there is something deeper there as Christ and the church is the central focus of the whole divine revelation.Some of us are convinced that there are some deeper things to be derived in the Holy Spirit in this book. And I am not afraid to defend that attitude.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The matter of the wall I would expect came about by careful consideration of how the matter of a wall is used elsewhere in the Scriptures. Walls, are significant in God's economy. The expositor certainly considered the wall of the New Jerusalem in the end of the Bible. And he probably considered the wall that was rebuilt around Jerusalem after the return of the Baylonian Captivity.The expositor considers these passages on walls significant to God's over all action of protecting His interests on the earth.It is okay if you think we read a little too much into it. That's OK. Maybe after some more spiritual progress you might one day come to realize that the analysis was not bad.I don't even know if you are born of the Spirit. I don't know yet if even the most basic things of God's salvation are clear to you.Concerning my personal life, I have been married for over 30 years and have raised two children which are now adults in thier upper twenties.My parents just celebrated a 60th annivarsary!