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Author Topic:   Christian Laws
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 121 of 392 (512869)
06-21-2009 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jaywill
06-21-2009 4:16 PM


Re: List the Laws
jaywill writes:
I did say that there were consequences to not obeying and being conformed to the image of Christ.
Like this one? - :
quote:
"... the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2Th 1:7,8
Oh Happy Day!

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jaywill, posted 06-21-2009 4:16 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by jaywill, posted 06-21-2009 10:40 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 122 of 392 (512871)
06-21-2009 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by purpledawn
06-21-2009 5:37 PM


Re: The Master's Will
Exactly! One must know the master's will. Consequences are given accordingly. So if one does not want stripes, one needs to know what the master's will is.
A fair and just master makes sure his slave clearly understands his will.
So list the Master's will and what is deserving of stripes.
I already gave you one important requirement - deny yourself and follow the Lord, ie. picking up your cross to follow Christ.
How that is applied to each disciple is the business of the Lord Jesus. The proper and expected level of denying oneself to follow the living Lord is something under His control and is relative to each disciple's level of growth in the spiritual life.
He is a living God. Don't try to reduce Him into a computer flow chart.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by purpledawn, posted 06-21-2009 5:37 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by doctrbill, posted 06-21-2009 11:08 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 6:38 AM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 123 of 392 (512874)
06-21-2009 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by doctrbill
06-21-2009 9:50 PM


Re: List the Laws
I understand 2 Thess. 1:7,8 in context to refer mainly to the persecutors of Christians and not slothful or defeated believers.
Here is why "Since it is just with God to repay with affliction those afflicting you, and to you who are being afflicted, rest with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire, rendering vengence ...."
This is a matter of God rendering vengence for opposition to the Christians rather than discipline on the Christians.
1.) Those who do not know God must be atheist types.
2.) Those who do not obey the gospel of Christ are those who heard the gospel and did not obey to believe.
The penalty is "eternal destruction".
"They will pay the penalty of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength" (v.9)
Eternal destruction is not the portion of any backslidden or immature Christians. They shall never perish forever. Those worthy of discipline are "saved yet so as through fire". That is not eternal perdition.
Here is a verse applying definitely to Christians:
"And now little children, abide in Him, so that if He is manifested, we may have boldness and not be put to shame from Him at His coming." (1 John 2:28)
This passage is about meeting the Lord Jesus when He comes. Contrary to poorer translations it is not a matter of "feeling" shamed. It is a matter of being "put to shame". The teaching is general and does not here detail what this means. But for certain there is the possibility that a upon meeting Christ in His return a Christian could be "put to shame from Him at His coming" .
In other words this could be the consequence of not abiding in Him - "And now little children, abide in Him ..."
This is a very important "law" if you wish. That is to abide in Him. To linger in His presence. To log more and more time in fellowship with Christ. To remain in Him and under His instant moment by moment enfluence. He is the true vine and the disciples are the branches.
"Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine; you are the branches. He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing." (John 15:4,5)
So the Apostle John tells the believers to abide in Him so that when He does appear in His second coming we may not be put to shame from Him. This is a temporary consequence and not eternal punishment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by doctrbill, posted 06-21-2009 9:50 PM doctrbill has not replied

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 124 of 392 (512875)
06-21-2009 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by jaywill
06-21-2009 10:13 PM


Re: The Master's Will
jaywill writes:
... the living Lord ... He is a living God. Don't try to reduce Him into a computer flow chart.
Living Gods are Alive ... Large, and In-Charge.
Jesus of Nazareth: has no presence, no power, no solution to the disasters which plague humankind.
It is the way of kings to destroy (and threaten to destroy) their competition; and J.C. was no exception. The Great Jehovah himself "became" the God of Israel after signing a contract to that effect. A contract sealed in blood.
"O Lord our God, Other Lords have ruled over us but we are loyal to you. They are gone. They are dead. They won't be coming back. You have killed them. You have advanced the nation. You have expanded all our borders." (and so on ...) A Paraphrase of Isaiah 26:13-15.
doctrbill writes:
... the former Lord ... He is a deceased God. Don't try to revive Him with a zombie human heart.
Edited by doctrbill, : No reason given.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jaywill, posted 06-21-2009 10:13 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jaywill, posted 06-22-2009 7:43 AM doctrbill has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 125 of 392 (512890)
06-22-2009 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by purpledawn
06-20-2009 3:25 PM


Re: Worship
thanks purpledawn for dragging me back in...
purpledawn writes:
The Oral Torah is supposedly the explanation of the Written Torah. The Oral Torah was not to be written down. The Jews decided to write it down before the info got lost. If all the people who carried the info got killed, the information would be gone. The Talmud contains that information and more. So it was wise to write it down.
the jews of later times were the ones who created the 'oral' torah. It wasnt at Gods direction, it was as a way of teaching the law of moses...unfortunately they began to view the oral law as more important then the mosaic laws.
It was the oral laws that Jesus condemned when he said the following:
quote:
Matt15:1-: 'Then there came to Jesus from Jerusalem Pharisees and scribes, saying: "Why is it your disciples overstep the tradition of the men of former times? For example, they do not wash their hands when about to eat a meal." In reply he said to them: "Why is it you also overstep the commandment of God because of your tradition? For example, God said: 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Let him that reviles father or mother die the death.' But you say: 'Whoever says to his father or mother, 'Whatever I have by which you might get help from me is a gift dedicated to God,' he must not honor his father at all."
And so you have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition. You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said: "This people honors me with their lips, yet their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep paying respect to me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines."
these oral laws clearly violated Gods laws about honoring ones mother and father...so it easy to understand why Jesus condemned the use of them.
purpledawn writes:
And I provided links in Message 89.
your links dont explain how the christians taught the oral law...can you explain it. Surely if they did, their writings would show them teaching such...do the NT teach the oral law or not? If yes, show me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 06-20-2009 3:25 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 11:03 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 126 of 392 (512892)
06-22-2009 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Taz
06-21-2009 6:38 PM


Re: Question
Taz writes:
Um, shouldn't you christians put this dude to death?
you read a command from the mosaic law and ask why christians dont carry it out
LOL pay attention!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Taz, posted 06-21-2009 6:38 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Taz, posted 06-22-2009 12:35 PM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 127 of 392 (512895)
06-22-2009 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jaywill
06-21-2009 10:13 PM


Re: The Master's Will
quote:
I already gave you one important requirement - deny yourself and follow the Lord, ie. picking up your cross to follow Christ.
And further down Jesus says: "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple."
Jesus was not talking to future believers, he was talking to the people of his time, the people who could physically follow him as the twelve did.
Christians are obviously not giving up everything.
When the master left, did he just leave the slave with a handful of metaphors and catch phrases to follow?
As I said in Message 6
PD writes:
I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day.
I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law.
I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue.
Christianity dishes out catch phrases and metaphors. Laws or rules of behavior should never be left to interpretation.
A master who provides clear instructions, isn't reduced to a computer flow chart. He is a good master.
A master whose words can be twisted to suit the whims of the slave, is not a good master.
If the slave can't tell me what his master's will is, then the master did not make his will clear.
Edited by purpledawn, : Msg

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jaywill, posted 06-21-2009 10:13 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by jaywill, posted 06-22-2009 10:51 AM purpledawn has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 128 of 392 (512896)
06-22-2009 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by jaywill
06-20-2009 10:04 PM


jaywill writes:
Peg, I am inclined to think James meant nothing other than the law of Moses in James 1:25, 2:12 James represents the most primitive in this transition.
I think James had one foot still in the old covenant Mosiac law keeping.
James spoke wrote about 'the perfect law that belongs to freedom’ and pointed out that the one who persisted in it would be happy. (james1:25) so im not sure i understand what you mean by that.
It could have been the 'prescriptions' of the Mosaic law he was referring to, but other writers spoke more specifically about the 'freedom'
Are you saying that James meant christians were 'free' because they no longer had to observe the Mosaic law?
If so, this implies that if one lives by Gods laws, they are no longer free.
and i dont think that we can view Gods laws in such a way. If you think about Adam and Eve, they became slaves to sin and death by their 'disobedience' to Gods law...before then, they were happy and free living by Gods law.
The isrealites on the other hand were in bondage to Egypt until God freed them. He told them that as long as they obeyed his commandments they would have freedom. If they obeyed his laws, he would protect and provide for them, if they failed, he would allow surrounding nations to enlsave them. This happened time and time again for Iseal, they'd be ok for a while obeying, then they'd disobey and a rival nation would come against them and enslave them.
So in line with that reasoning, its more logical to me that the freedom being spoken of is a freedom from 'sin' as opposed to freedom from the mosaic law.
Youv'e probably noted in this discussion that while i've said that the mosaic law was no longer binding, its standards and principles were. This is because Gods laws are based on love so they are perfect laws.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by jaywill, posted 06-20-2009 10:04 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 129 of 392 (512904)
06-22-2009 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by doctrbill
06-21-2009 11:08 PM


Re: The Master's Will
Living Gods are Alive ... Large, and In-Charge.
There is only one living God. There are not multiple "living Gods".
And God is not only large. He can be very small, small enough to eat. He can be as small as a wafer of manna to fit into the mouth. He can be small enough as a breath of air or a drink of water.
So enjoying Christ has been a matter of a grandiose Person but one small emough to assimilate in traffic, while washing dishes, while changing diapers. He is a God small enough to be assimlated in a detailed and practical way in the mundanes of life.
I think you are speaking from your unbelief.
Jesus of Nazareth: has no presence,
You are speaking from your unbelief. I am sorry He has no presence for you. But since I received Jesus Christ He certainly has a presence for me which I am enjoying at this moment. And I can concur with what His words:
"Behold I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 20:20)
You are speaking out of your lack of belief and shortage of experience.
But I have to stop here this this morning.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by doctrbill, posted 06-21-2009 11:08 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by doctrbill, posted 06-22-2009 1:31 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 137 by doctrbill, posted 06-22-2009 2:05 PM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 130 of 392 (512920)
06-22-2009 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by purpledawn
06-22-2009 6:38 AM


Re: The Master's Will
And further down Jesus says: "In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple."
Jesus was not talking to future believers, he was talking to the people of his time, the people who could physically follow him as the twelve did.
This is Christ's word to all His followers. Paul was not there in that group. Yet Paul in following Jesus wrote:
"But what things were gains to me, these I have counted as loss on account of Christ. But moreover I also count all things to be loss on account of the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, on account of whom I suffered the loss of all tings and count them as refuse tjat I may gain Christ and be found in Him ..." (Phil 3:7-9a)
And Paul was set forth as "a pattern to t hose who are to believe Him unto eternal life." (1 Tim. 1:16)
As a leading example of a normal disciple of Christ, Paul, not being of the twelve to whom Jesus spoke that word, nevertheless reacts by counting all things refuse in comparison to the value of Christ and the preciousness of being found in Him. In other words those who trust Jesus for eternal life should also go on to be disciples of Jesus.
Christians are obviously not giving up everything.
The Hermits took this word and renounced worldly possessions. It was latter realized that even in the matter of relinquishing possession this is up to the guidance of Christ.
I think your usage of the passage has the aim of ridicule or slander as opposed to honestly seeking understanding of the Christian life. You may own things without being attached to them so that they are more important that the Lord Jesus.
Another quite mature discple, John, tells us that anything that replaces the Triune God in the Chritian's life is an idol.
"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding that we are in Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.
Little children, guard yourselves from idols." (1 John 5:20,21)
The net effect is that nothing should REPLACE the preeminence of the true God and Christ in the lives of His followers. We may own things. But nothing should become an idol as to become more dear to us that God and Christ and living in God and Christ as the eternal life.
Obviously, if you own nothing how then can you obey that portion of Christ's teaching to share and give to those in need?
So you have to learn not only what the Bible says but what else the Bible says.
When the master left, did he just leave the slave with a handful of metaphors and catch phrases to follow?
Actually in a very real sense He didn't leave us at all.
Of the four Gospels two record Jesus going away and two give no word about this. Mark and Luke record Jesus departing. These books are balanced by John and Matthew. Both John and Matthew do not close with the idea that Jesus has left to go away.
Particularly Matthew emphasizes that He is with the disciple as "Emmanuel - God With Us" all the days until the close of the church age:
"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age" (Matt. 28:20)
There is quite a lot about the Jesus who is available now, present now, approachablee now, touchable now, ready to have fellowship with and follow now, and ready to enjoy here and now.
On one hand He is at the right hand of God (Romans 8:34). But in the same chapter He is the Christ who is in the disciples (Romans 8:10)
His words "Abide in Me and I in you" inform us that His timing as to when to relinquish or obtain material things is what we must learn. This is a loving and patient and wise Master.
If a person receives Jesus as Lord today maybe the living Christ will not immediately ask him to walk out of his house leaving everything. Perhaps one evening this week He may just say "How about you give Me one half hour to pray and read the Gospel tonight instead of watching TV?"
If you obey then you grow stronger and He will gradually mature you. This is a gentle, wise, patient Master who comes to live in our hearts.
Jesus told John to take his mother Mary into his own care. John had a home to take Mary the mother of Jesus (John 19:26,27). So let's be a little discerning here and not take one passage, run headlong into a foolish comprehension of the New Testament.
As I said in Message 6
PD writes:
I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day.
I keep asking because Christians keep claiming that the Mosaic Law came to and end, but keep holding people up to portions of that law.
I keep asking because Christians avoid the issue.
I have not been avoiding the issue.
Christianity dishes out catch phrases and metaphors. Laws or rules of behavior should never be left to interpretation.
It seems your sole concern is to rationalize disbelieving in Christ. You seem to be mustering your intellect to discredit the Gospel.
As for me, I always asked God to lead me to Christians who could help my faith rather thatn hurt it. So what faults of preachers or teachers I never allowed it to discourage me from following on to know the Jesus who I met in the privacy of my living room.
I did not hunt for reasons to doubt Christ. Nor did I labor on rationals and excuses to not receive Him as Lord and Savior. So while you are standing on the wayside complaining, many of us are going on to deepen our experience of this Wonderful Lord and going on to the kingdom.
The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the builded church, even if they make a lot of mistakes on the way to the end.
A master who provides clear instructions, isn't reduced to a computer flow chart. He is a good master.
The first instruction is "Abide in Me and I in you".
First you have to get into Christ. Are you eager to get into this resurrected living Christ or are you scared or resistant ?
Are you using unclearness about what He wants as a handy excuse to not receive Him as your own Lord and Savior ?
A master whose words can be twisted to suit the whims of the slave, is not a good master.
It will be interesting to see someone like you stand before God and charge Him with such a moral lesson.
If the slave can't tell me what his master's will is, then the master did not make his will clear.
Are you saying that you wish to be a slave of Jesus Christ ? Or are you saying that from a distance you have decided that it is not worth it ?
You don't have to answer to me. It is a matter between you and God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 6:38 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 11:26 AM jaywill has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 131 of 392 (512922)
06-22-2009 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Peg
06-22-2009 6:03 AM


The Oral Law
quote:
the jews of later times were the ones who created the 'oral' torah. It wasnt at Gods direction, it was as a way of teaching the law of moses...unfortunately they began to view the oral law as more important then the mosaic laws.
What later times? I already told you that according to Jewish History the Oral Torah sprouted around the end of the 2nd century bce. It provided the practical application of the law. Existence and Usage
How can you accept Jewish tradition for Mosaic authorship, but not for the Oral Law?
Show me in reality that the Jews viewed the oral law as more important than the Mosaic Laws.
In Matthew 15:1, Jesus is pointing out the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, not condemning the Oral Law. As I showed in Message 89, the author of Matthew has Jesus telling people to do what they say, but not what they do since they don't practice what they preach.
Matthew 23
1.Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2."The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3.So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
quote:
these oral laws clearly violated Gods laws about honoring ones mother and father...so it easy to understand why Jesus condemned the use of them.
1. Show me that Verse 5 was part of the Oral Law.
2. Show me that all the Oral Laws violated Gods laws. Just because Jesus disagrees with one or two of the oral laws, doesn't mean he disagrees with them all. As I showed in Message 89.
quote:
your links dont explain how the christians taught the oral law...can you explain it.
Because that wasn't the point of the article.
In Message 80 you said: Jesus never quoted oral Jewish traditions, he always quoted from the inspired scriptures.
And I provided - Adultery can be committed with the eyes (Leviticus Rabba 23:12) which is from the Oral Law.
From the article "The Oral Torah in the New Testament".
...(1Cor 8:8) three of the four commandments that the Jerusalem Council insisted all believers observe immediately upon becoming Jesus believers dealt with food. (Acts 15:20&29; 21:25) Two of these came from the oral Torah: not to eat things sacrificed to idols,[45] and not to eat things strangled.[46] The written Torah does not forbid either of these types of food, yet Jesus, in Revelation, is portrayed as strongly rebuking the communities of Pergamum and Thyatira for breaking the ban on their consumption. (Rev 2:14 & 20)...
Jesus’ ideas on prayer mirror those in the oral Torah, as well. He taught his disciples not to babble when they prayed (Mat. 5:7), and advised them to never stop praying for something they really needed. (Luke 18:1-6) What Jesus called babbling, Chazal labeled calculating, purposely making one’s prayers long so that they would be an-swered. Calculating, or babbling, was forbidden by the Oral Torah;[Babylonian Talmud, Berekhot 32b] and just as Jesus advised his disciples to continue asking G-d for what they wanted, the oral Torah commanded the Israelites, If a man realizes that he has prayed and not been an-swered, he should pray again.[Babylonian Talmud, Berekhot 32b]
From the article "Jesus and Oral Torah"
The Last Passover of Yeshua also indicates that He observed elements of the oral traditions. When He blessed the bread and Cups, He was following the general pattern of the Seder that was endorsed by the sages of His day. Yeshua also apparently wore tzitzit (Mark 6:56, Matt. 9:21), recited Haftarah in the synagogue on the Sabbath according to the parashah divisions developed by Ezra and the members of the Great Assembly (Luke 4:16-22), referred to the Bible in the threefold division of Torah, Writings, and Prophets (i.e., the Tanakh, also developed by Ezra the Scribe); and so on. Yeshua's teaching methodology (the use of parables, the master-disciple relationship, and so on).
Paul and Oral Torah
For example, when he wrote, "And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4), he was quoting from a story later recorded in the Talmud (i.e., that from the time that Moses struck the rock at Horeb and brought forth water until the death of Miriam (Ex. 20:1), this water-giving rock "followed the children of Israel through the desert and provided water for them each day" (Taanit, 9a and Bava Metizia, 86b)). In addition Paul was careful to observe various Torah restrictions during his life. Even after his conversion, he took the Nazirite vow (Acts 18:18), lived "in observance of the Torah" (Acts 21:23-24), and even offered sacrifices in the Jewish Temple (Acts 21:26). Paul asked, "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law" (Rom. 3:31).
In Message 1 you included this verse as a Christian Law.
7. Acts 15:28 "For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication"
Two of those on the list are from the Oral Law, not the Written Law.
quote:
Surely if they did, their writings would show them teaching such...do the NT teach the oral law or not? If yes, show me.
The gospels do not cover everything Jesus taught during his ministry. We have no idea what the Twelve taught after his death, and we don't have all of what Paul taught.
Each author had a purpose for his writing. They didn't need to include the Jewish teachings that Jesus agreed with since that was taught in the synagogues. They only had to include that which was different.
Edited by purpledawn, : Msg #

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Peg, posted 06-22-2009 6:03 AM Peg has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 132 of 392 (512924)
06-22-2009 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by jaywill
06-22-2009 10:51 AM


Re: The Master's Will
quote:
It seems your sole concern is to rationalize disbelieving in Christ. You seem to be mustering your intellect to discredit the Gospel.
As for me, I always asked God to lead me to Christians who could help my faith rather thatn hurt it. So what faults of preachers or teachers I never allowed it to discourage me from following on to know the Jesus who I met in the privacy of my living room.
I did not hunt for reasons to doubt Christ. Nor did I labor on rationals and excuses to not receive Him as Lord and Savior. So while you are standing on the wayside complaining, many of us are going on to deepen our experience of this Wonderful Lord and going on to the kingdom.
The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the builded church, even if they make a lot of mistakes on the way to the end.
And still you don't answer the question. Your concern is rationalizing why you can't tell me specifically what the Master's will is. No confusion, no interpretation, clear to everyone what he will judge when he returns.
I don't present doubt of Christ, I present doubt of Christian tradition.
quote:
PD writes:
A master whose words can be twisted to suit the whims of the slave, is not a good master.
It will be interesting to see someone like you stand before God and charge Him with such a moral lesson.
Why? God didn't write the NT or Christian traditions.
quote:
PD writes:
If the slave can't tell me what his master's will is, then the master did not make his will clear.
Are you saying that you wish to be a slave of Jesus Christ ? Or are you saying that from a distance you have decided that it is not worth it ?
You don't have to answer to me. It is a matter between you and God.
Good grief! I'm continuing the analogy you quoted in Message 117 from Luke 12:47. Are your comprehension skills that bad?
Please stick to the topic of the thread.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by jaywill, posted 06-22-2009 10:51 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by jaywill, posted 06-22-2009 12:14 PM purpledawn has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 133 of 392 (512928)
06-22-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by purpledawn
06-22-2009 11:26 AM


Re: The Master's Will
And still you don't answer the question. Your concern is rationalizing why you can't tell me specifically what the Master's will is. No confusion, no interpretation, clear to everyone what he will judge when he returns.
One more time. Start here with this requirement - Abide in Me and I in you.
First requirement, receive Him and abide in Him. I am giving you an answer. You want your answer in your way thirty or forty commandments like "Thou Shalt, Thou Shalt Not".
You want me to continue the ten commandments Christian style. You may have some ground to expect me to speak in those terms. But I do not.
"Give me your Christian Laws." I want "Don't touch this, Don't look at that, Don't do this, Don't do that, etc, etc, etc," a neat "list" of instructions that if you DO these things you are a Christian.
I told you we start here "Abide in Me and I in you".
If you showed some willingness to see Christ's need for man to get into Him as a living Realm and a living Sphere and REMAIN, Abide, in that realm so that He in His living being could in turn Abide in us, then perhaps we could go on.
But the way I speak to you is the way I would speak to ANY convert to the Gospel. First you have to learn to Abide in Him and allow Him to Abide in you.
I don't present doubt of Christ, I present doubt of Christian tradition.
Some "Christian traditions" should be doubted.
If you read the book of Galatians you might see that the diciples are told to "Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh"
The Judiazers were doing much what you desire. They wanted to put the Galatian Christians back under the law of Moses. They did not understand Grace in any regard, neither its redemption by nor empowering and enabling to live righteously.
Paul's word about the empowering of this indwelling grace of Christ:
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Philemon 25)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen" (Gal. 6:18)
"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
The Grace is the empowering to live righteously. Paul reminds the disciples that this empowering is with their innermost being. Since they received Christ Jesus into their being His resides in thier innermost person. He is with their spirit. And His grace is their with Him in their spirit.
The Holy Spirit is mingled with the human spirits of those who have been born of the Spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)
So to abide in the Lord and to allow His grace to empower them to live Christ they must excercise their spirit and turn to their spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is.
Christ became the life giving Spirit - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) This is why Jesus Christ Himself can come and abide in the innermost being of human beings.
Once again, the Christian's very first requirement is to abide in Him and allow Him to abide in us.
Why? God didn't write the NT or Christian traditions.
Traditions are not all inspired by God. For example, Christmas is a religious tradition. It is really pre-Christians Saturnalia. The Roman Catholic Church, in order to make the Christian Gospel polular, assimilated pagan traditions and gave them a supposedly Christian spin.
That is an example of a "Christian tradition" if you will that should be questioned. Mary worship, paying endulgences, Babylonian style religious garb worn by ekklesiastical heirarchy are other so called "Christian traditions" which have nothing to do with the New Testament.
These are not the only questionable traditions. I use them as representative of the problem, a problem which Christ prophesied would occur in Matthew 13.
At any rate my practice is to allow the Master to rise above me and critique me. You seem to suggest that the Master come and sit at purpledawn's feet and learn a thing or two about being the Lord and Savior. Slightly ridiculous.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 11:26 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by purpledawn, posted 06-22-2009 5:56 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 134 of 392 (512930)
06-22-2009 12:22 PM


... No confusion, no interpretation ...
Maybe you think the New Testament should just have consisted of a list of about 10 to 15 commandments rather than 27 books.
Do you treat your professional life the same way? Did you attend college? Surely they could have just given you a list of a few things to know. Why four or more years of study?
I think you probably hypocritically demand a level of absence of interpretative need to the Gospel of Christ which you do not demand for any other serious or worthwhile pursuit of human life.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 135 of 392 (512931)
06-22-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Peg
06-22-2009 6:13 AM


Re: Question
Peg writes:
you read a command from the mosaic law and ask why christians dont carry it out
But Peg, last time I talked with you the bible is suppose to be literally true on all things. You tried to use the "mosaic laws" to condemn homosexuality.
I have been paying attention. Christians do carry out mosaic laws. That's why you people persecute gay people.
Are you telling me it's ok to cherry pick the laws?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 06-22-2009 6:13 AM Peg has not replied

  
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