Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?

Percy,
I apologize for the post, but I thought schraf had gotten the message in the other club. Obviously I was mistaken about that. I will simply refrain from responding to any further inquiries concerning the Research Center, as the previous post obviously said it all. Again, I apologize for the post.

Sorry if this also fals under the category of mind your own business but why do research into creation/evolution if the results won`t be made available?Does the provision of an overview of research conducted, methodology, conclusions reached so far and the like feature on the list of information your employers have put on some sort of need to know list?To be fair if your employers have made verboten any sort of comunication of your work to the outside world I also don`t give a damm I just find the ban on comunication odd.....

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Originally posted by joz:
Sorry if this also fals under the category of mind your own business but why do research into creation/evolution if the results won`t be made available?

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Does the provision of an overview of research conducted, methodology, conclusions reached so far and the like feature on the list of information your employers have put on some sort of need to know list?

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To be fair if your employers have made verboten any sort of comunication of your work to the outside world I also don`t give a damm I just find the ban on comunication odd.....

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Actually, they are not my employers. I run a business that has nothing to do with them or their research work. I am an associate apprentice with the Research Center and all of my work is voluntary, although I do receive a per diem. All of my instruction is free under the signed guarantee that I make no attempt to present, provide, or publish any of the findings concerning the studies I am involved in. I would not do so anyway, as it would require me to take credit for another persons life work.It is my hope to be allowed to engage in a study at the Grand Canyon in the future, but my current study involves the probable effects on the environment of a global canopy and a double atmosphere. There are other studies and research being done in this area by other organizations that are far more equipped than we are. However, this study is of great interest to me and if given the chance I would gladly engage in this study with those other organizations. Unfortunately, that does not appear to be a realistic possibility.

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Already today there are those who accept that God did indeed create through the process of evolution. But for myself, it would have to be proof and not merely evidence.

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well, OL' buddy... science can never provide "proof" of these THEORIES. it can provide overwhelming evidence, but not proof. Gravity is a theory, but only a knuckle-head would deny its existence. we have built models and confirmed predictions that came with its existence.

WOW!that was a great post, quetzal!!very clear and very "to-the-point"!

jet--where are these neo-nazi hitlerian evilutionists? what is there next plot? how can i protect me and my family? are my teachers part of the plot too? i'm really alarmed... i've locked all the windows... I think they're watching me... a man in a long white coat was following me last night... wait........ there's a noise... someone's in the house... oh pleasse.... no! no! ahhhhh!!

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Originally posted by Jet:

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No, I would not make this claim, although it does occur in many debates. Remaining within the context of my entire post, it addresses how the proponents of the ToE who are on the fringe, (and not the mainstream proponents), are never willing to discuss the ToE honestly with anyone who approaches the ToE as a skeptic. These fringe evo's are easily recognized by their tactics of attacking the person rather than addressing the position through the refutation of evidences presented. The ToE is never so cut-n-dried as some continually insist that it is. As I stated earlier, I have several friends who are evolutionists who I work with on a daily basis. They fully know my position as I do theirs. They have never used my opposition to the ToE as an excuse to simply dismiss any opposing view on any particular subject of discussion that we may have. If I ask a question and they know that nothing within the ToE can properly explain away my position, they readily admit it. They do not abandon their position, but neither do they disregard my position as invalid simply because it challenges the ToE. Perhaps that is why we always look forward to new and rewarding discussions. We make every attempt to show each other mutual respect.

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Nor am I disregarding your point of view, otherwise I would not
be involved in the discussions within this forum.The only question I have asked in this thread is (to re-phrase):Is there any single piece (or set) of evidence that would make
a creationist consider the ToE to be a real possibility ?If there is, I would like to know what that is.My reason for asking this is, basically, that have studied
in various scientific fields (both academically, privately,
and for work related issues) I find the evidence I have seen in
favour of ToE to be strongly compelling.When much of this evidence is presented to YEC's it is rebutted
on some ground or another (usually something in the fine detail,
and often things which conventional science accept after years
of reliable use e.g. radiometric dating).SO the question is ... what evidence would convince you that ToE
had happened ?Hypothetically!!!If someone asks me what would convince me that ToE is wrong, I
can think of a few evidences, which if found would make me re-think.That's all I'm asking ... trying to find some focus for debate
really.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jet:
[b]

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Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B]I think that we should all ask Jet to tell us about the research he does for the "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies".

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What part of "NO" do you not understand? Is it the "N" or the "O"?
I am not surprised that you continue to press me for information from our little, yet growing organization. I have repeatedly denied you any access to this organization via a P.O. Box, Fax Number, Address, or E-mail. I have also stated my reasons to you several times.[/QUOTE]

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Well, those reasons are unjustified. I have even offered to provide you MY address so you could send me information about your organization with no return address on it if you wish, and yet you refuse.

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You made the claim that you do research for the "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies". This is a claim which I think is reasonable to have verified. Why is the organization such a big secret?

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Our resources are not such that we are willing to deal with the continued harrassment that we received in the past when this information was made available. We have had our E-mail address overwhelmed with spam so we changed it. Our fax and phone lines, limited as they are, which were spammed during off hours to the extent that our message center was inundated with bogus letters and recorded messages, most of which were a single worded letter and an inflamatory recorded message, called in hundreds of times, from the same group of individuals.

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Oh dear, I am sorry that this happened to you. What does this have to do with me?

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As I stated to you in the other club, a point which you seem unable to grasp, is that I would not post any information without permission from my superiors, ( which they have already denied me), not to mention that nothing I am involved in at the Research Center is any of your business.

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Well, you made it sound like the research you and others at your organization were doing was relevant to this debate. Look, YOU are the one who brough up your involvement in this, "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies". If you didn't want me or anyone else to know about your involvemment, why did you bring it up? Did you think we would not ask questions and ask for specifics? What kind of science do you do at this place if nobody is allowed to see it, anyway?

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As one of my superiors pointed out to me, your continued harrassment on this issue is a very strong indication that you are indeed one member of that group of individuals that bombarded us with spam messages before, which caused us to initiate this policy in the first place.

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Oh, for heaven's sake, now you have gone off the deep end.

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Have the MIB started to visit you recently, or do you spend time in your tool shed trying to break codes for the govenment?

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You may continue your fruitless attempts to gain information but until I actually post evidence that has been presented by our Research Center, I feel no need whatsoever to allow you even the slightest amount of exposure to our studies, research, or our organization. You may not like our policy but in the immortal words of Rhet Butler, that great character in the "Gone With The Wind" movie...........................................................

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""FRANKLY, MY DEAR, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN""

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Something tells me you still will be unable to grasp the concept that "NO MEANS NO!", so when you get the urge to continually ask for that which has continually been denied you, as it is none of your business,

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If the "center" is so secret, and it is none of my business, then you certainly made a really big mistake in telling us about it on the Yahoo club, didn't you?

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[QUOTE]and your relentless desire to access us is undoubtedly so that you and your group can once again begin spamming us, and seeing as how none of our research would be offered in a froum such as this, not at any time, nor for any reason, please refer to the quotes above for clarification on why your requests are continually ignored and denied.
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Paranoid much?Look, Jet, why don't you just admit that you made up the "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies" to make yourself sound qualified and important in the discussion? I would understand. It's hard work debating science, and it's even harder (for a lot of people) to admit that they maybe don't know something. Wouldn't it be better to just come clean and then get on with the debate?I am very persistent, it's true. It's one of my most endearing qualities, and very, very useful in debates.My offer of providing an address so you can send me info still stands.------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"

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Originally posted by quicksink:
jet--

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where are these neo-nazi hitlerian evilutionists? what is there next plot? how can i protect me and my family? are my teachers part of the plot too? i'm really alarmed... i've locked all the windows... I think they're watching me... a man in a long white coat was following me last night... wait........ there's a noise... someone's in the house... oh pleasse.... no! no! ahhhhh!!

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Thanks QS. Odd I never received a reply to that post. Oh well. Mayhaps it was too pointed.INRE: neo-hitlerian evilutionists. Keep it up: yer on the list, pal. First against the wall come the revolution...

I recently invited some friends from the old club to participate in the many debates here. When they came in and saw that Percy and Larry were running the place and schraf and the old gang were just as obstinate as ever, they decided to find a more evenly balanced club where some real honest debate is occurring without the evo's "holier than thou" condescending attitudes that are so prevalent within this old group. I can't say I blame them. Believe it or not, there are actual debate groups where evo's are willing to acknowledge scientific work despite the fact that the scientist might be a christian. Most even accept creation science as the true science that it is. It's a shame that not all evo's are as honest and willing to debate without the attitude shown by some of the evo's in here. More's the pity!

jet--
stop your creationist conspiracy dance and start giving the hard facts.do you think that we evilutionists are here to murder you? no! we have better things to do. but we are here to debate the facts.as of yet, you have given no facts and nothing to work with. instead, you have resorted to critisizing the evilutionists for not being open-minded. open-minded about what? your conspiracy?and where is the evidence of that evilutionist conspiracy... none yet.so jet, go to animals on the ark, QUESTIONS, and the ultimate question threads, and answer my questions. your yacking is wasting time.

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[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-09-2002]

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Originally posted by quicksink:
jet--
stop your creationist conspiracy dance and start giving the hard facts.

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do you think that we evilutionists are here to murder you? no! we have better things to do. but we are here to debate the facts.

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as of yet, you have given no facts and nothing to work with. instead, you have resorted to critisizing the evilutionists for not being open-minded. open-minded about what? your conspiracy?

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and where is the evidence of that evilutionist conspiracy... none yet.

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so jet, go to animals on the ark, QUESTIONS, and the ultimate question threads, and answer my questions. your yacking is wasting time.

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[This message has been edited by quicksink, 03-09-2002]

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Your response is exactly the type of non-productive approach that I referred to earlier. Nothing of substance nor any attempt at an honest presentation of a position with facts to support it. You offer personal verbal attacks, coupled with continual ranting concerning non-issues. And you actually expect someone to enter into a discussion of the issues with you? On what basis? Move on to your next target! Homey don't play this game!

Hello, allright, well i'm a creationist, but i think that evolution has obviouslly occured...why else do you think there's black people in africa, and brown people in india, and chinese people in china, and white people in western europe...if there was no such thiing as evolution, there would be only one human race. I believe in evolution, just i don't believe the whole "man came from monkey's" rubbish....if you say man came from monkey's you could just as easily say that monkey's came from man...
so sum up what i just said, there is evolution, just only within a certain specie....sorry if what i said is like totally wrong, im just a young dude, but that's what i think.

Jet,

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Jet writes:
I recently invited some friends from the old club to participate in the many debates here. When they came in and saw that Percy and Larry were running the place and schraf and the old gang were just as obstinate as ever, they decided to find a more evenly balanced club where some real honest debate is occurring without the evo's "holier than thou" condescending attitudes that are so prevalent within this old group.

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You have a warped sense of reality and a short memory. As I just told you in message 44, Larry, an evolutionist and moderator of Topical Discussion should he ever return, quit when I issued a warning to both he and you because he thought I was being blatantly biased toward you. SLP quit participation here when I gave him two consecutive 24-hour suspensions of posting privileges for abusing Fred Williams - he felt evolutionists shouldn't be disciplining other evolutionists. SLP is the only person who's ever had a 24-hour suspension here so far, while no Creationist has ever had a suspension here. Are you trying to change that?If you don't like this board, if you think it's unfair, then go somewhere else. But if you're going to post messages here then they must have content relevant to the discussion and not be broadsides aimed at the opposition.The guidelines for this board are intended to create an environment where discussion stays focused on issues instead of personalities. Please help this be that kind of place. Thank you.--Percy