Why do Christians make God out to be dumb?

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Defining Free Will
There are several points on whjich there is confusion about what is meant by free will. Some have said that it refers to the ability to desire. But a better defintion is that it is the ability to decide between alternatives. Desire is a passion, an emotion; but will is a choice between two or more desires. Also, some think that to be free means that there can be no limitation of alternatives-one must be able to do whatever he wants. But the opposite of freedom is not fewer alternatives, it is being forced to choose one thing and not another. Freedom is not in unlimited options, but in unfettered choice between whatever options there are. As long as the choosing comes from the individual rather than an outside force, the decision is made freely. Free will means the ability to make an unforced decision between two or more alternatives.
When Skeptics Ask p.63

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God made the world in a way that man would have a limited range of options to choose from. Among these options was a choice to choose between good and evil. God does not prevent evil because if he did, then we would no longer have free will. God made evil possible, and man made it actual.Why would God make evil possible?Because evil serves a purpose:It tests us.
When evil things happen to us, it gives us a chance to fight against evil. When there is no evil it is much easier to do good, and it is not a challenge. When we must overcome evil, we have an oppurtunity to prove to God that we love him and will persevere in spite of evil.Draws us closer to God
When evil occurs people tend to seek God's help to persevere through it. Many people convert to Christianity becuase of problems in their lives. A real life example: One of my uncles has developed a psychological problem and he has attacked his family, and created great turmoil in his families lives. Now many of his children are strong Christians. There are many examples of this sort of thing happening.So in the end, the existance of evil in the world actually produces a better good. People become more devoted to God, and more prepared to face evil.[This message has been edited by Muhd, 04-13-2004][This message has been edited by Muhd, 04-13-2004]

Fine. So remove evil as an alternative. After all, you say that reducing alternative doesn't decrease freedom. Then, allow unfettered choice among all that is good.Ergo, free will is preserved, if it's about the choice and not the alternatives. How can you fight when you're dead? You act like evil is something that only happens to other people. It'd say the opposite happens - when evil happens, they tend to reject the idea that a benevolent God runs the world. So evil in fact draws people away from God. That's certainly part of what led me to atheism.And you know what? Being drawn closer to God is insufficient justification. Abusers often draw their victims in with abuse. The dog that you feed, pet, and kick is more loyal than the one that you just feed and pet. The only God that would use evil to draw people to him is an abusive one. The former isn't true and the latter is circular. If there was no evil there would be no need to face it.And anyway, none of this explains why we couldn't live in the world of Everquest, where evil is only "permitted" outside of town. Why can't there be a place you can go to if you want to take your chances with evil? Why does evil have to come into your house to rob and kill you?

D'evil i sees is the in preoccupation and obsession with one or two ways of thinking. These ways have their own objectives and agendas for self-satisfaction. They are basically insane in that they nullify the whole-mind capacity to think, ie;Sanity.That we tend to be subconscious and unaware ourselves just how much our thinking is influenced and controlled by a singularity of the psychic apparati is the precursor to the evil behaviors which are simply end results bad for those around us, bad for us, bad for our society, and ultimately bad for Modern Homo Sapiens.SOBCONSCIOUS POSSESSORS OF OUR MIND AND OUTLOOK:A1) Id = The Pleasure Principle = Lucifer2) Libido = Physical Drives = Satan3) Ego = The Aggressive Drive = Mammon4) Anima = Feminine principle of Intuition = Devil5) Self = The Reality Principle = Baalzebub6) Superego = The Logical/Mathematical Mind = False Prophet7) Harmony = Psychic Balance = False ShepherdThe eighth emerging psychic factor has been brought to our attention by martyrs.8) Conscience = Brotherliness = The Good ShepherdRev. 1:4 ... Grace be unto you, and peace, ...; and from the seven psychic Spirits which are before his throne; Id, Libido, EGO, Anima, Self, Superego, Harmony...
Rev. 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand,... The seven stars are the psychic angels, Id, Libido, EGO, Anima, Self, Superego, Harmony...

How many times are you gonn'a post this garbage?

Its the mantra of Christ's coming. Expect to hear it more and more, rocket...Revelation 1:16 "He comes with seven stars in his right hand"...It's all about Human Behavior and the psychological source of thinking behind men's actions:That Freud/Jung complement scripture is little compared to the scripture which complements Freudian and Jungian takes on how we think.Gen. 1:26-27 And God, (The Universal Force, the Macrocosmos), said, Let us, (the Natural Laws), make man in our image (in his mind, as a microcosmic reflection of the Universe, after our orderly organization): and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God (The Universal Force) created man (a conscious mind enabled to image The Universal Force, abstractly and mathematically), so created the external Universal Force) him; male and female created he them.

Does the "mantra of christs coming" mention anything about the forum rules?

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Well, those christians telling you that you are going to hell have not read the NT. "Judge not, unless you be judged".(similar words)

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Those folks probably don't care if they are judged because, in their minds, they will be judged worthy and I won't be.

Again, we can't understand God's ways or what He does, so how can we determine whether or not His actions match His morals. But why wouldn't they?

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I can't really explain this, as it is related to not knowing God's ways, so how about you take a look at this?

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Though I may not agree with your choices, I do respect them.

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"The Astonishing Hypothesis is that you -- your joys and your sorrows, your memories and your ambitions, your sense of personal identity and free will, are in fact no more than the behavior of a vast assembly of nerve cells and their associated molecules" -Francis Crick in The Astonishing Hypothesis

Well, maybe you can't, but I say, you never know until you try. One of the features of a very intelligent plan is that it makes sense to everybody. Doesn't God have free will? Christ, doesn't this just start the whole thing over again? I've already shown how the presence of evil is not consistent with the existence of a benevolent, omnipotent God, no matter how you believe it affects "free will."

I'm sorry, but your so-called "mantra" is unbiblical, just like your Freudian/Jungian psychiatry. Also, please don't spam it in unrelated topics of debate.

Will help me find my way back here.Adminnemooseus

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WHERE TO GO TO START A NEW TOPIC (For other than "Welcome, Visitors!", "Suggestions and Questions", "Practice Makes Perfect", and "Short Subjects")Comments on moderation procedures? - Go to
Change in Moderation?
or
too fast closure of threads

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Fine. So remove evil as an alternative. After all, you say that reducing alternative doesn't decrease freedom. Then, allow unfettered choice among all that is good.

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Since God is good, our way of being pleasing to God is by doing good. Likewise, our way of rejecting God is by doing evil. If you remove our option of doing evil, we are forced to please God, and he doesn't want that. He wants us to choose to please him.Also, I think your understanding of freedom is not very good.
Let's apply your logic to African slaves in America in the eighteenth century (in the south, also). There was an infinite number of ways that the slaves could plow the fields that was also acceptable to the slavemaster. But they couldn't run away and live on their own. They had an infinite numbers of options. They certainly didn't have much freedom, because they wanted to run away, but they couldn't.

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And you know what? Being drawn closer to God is insufficient justification. Abusers often draw their victims in with abuse. The dog that you feed, pet, and kick is more loyal than the one that you just feed and pet. The only God that would use evil to draw people to him is an abusive one.

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God is not the one doing the abusing, it is humanity. If someone robs you of your money and beats you until you are unconscious, God cannot interfere, or he would destroy the robber's free will in that situation. However, God IS willing to give you salvation from the evil that you have done, as well as comfort and strength to persevere through evil if you let him do so.[This message has been edited by Muhd, 04-16-2004]

kofh2u quotes the bible:

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Revelation 1:16 "He comes with seven stars in his right hand"...

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Why is it that you fundies always stop right before you get to the best part? You don't even finish the entire verse, and yet you (not necessarily you specifically kofh2u, but fundies in general) accuse evos like me of taking our quotes out of context if we dare to quote any bible passage at all.In this case, you've left out the part about what Jesus will look like. The very next words say that he will have a two-edged sword sticking out of his mouth, which is interesting enough to visualise but one can't help wondering how it is that anyone might be able to notice it since his countenance, as the next passage tells us, will be as that of the sun. Thus anyone who tries to look at the sword sticking out of Jesus mouth (or just look at Jesus at all) would presumably go blind. Preceding passages tell us that he will be wearing a girdle made of gold, his eyes will be fire and his hair as white as snow. His feet will look like brass as it burns.Consider the picture thus painted: that of a gold-girdled, snow-white-haired man who's head, to all appearances at least, has been replaced by the sun but still retains such features as mouth and fire-eyes (an interesting idea, given that the "fire" is set against the direct backdrop of the burning sun), standing upon burning brass feet holding several stars in his hand and with a two-edged sword sticking out of his mouth.You honestly believe this crap?

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Since God is good, our way of being pleasing to God is by doing good. Likewise, our way of rejecting God is by doing evil. If you remove our option of doing evil, we are forced to please God, and he doesn't want that. He wants us to choose to please him.

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Just to understand your position, doing good pleases God. Doing evil is rejecting God. God wants us to be able to reject him, so that we can choose to please him, because he doesn't want to force anything out of us. Why then does he threaten us with an eternity of damnation if we don't choose to please him? It sounds like God is trying to force us to choose him by giving us a horrible alternative. This seems like an interesting variation of Hobson's choice.All in all, your God is very passive-aggressive.

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If someone robs you of your money and beats you until you are unconscious, God cannot interfere, or he would destroy the robber's free will in that situation. However, God IS willing to give you salvation from the evil that you have done, as well as comfort and strength to persevere through evil if you let him do so.

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Oh, I get it. The robber's choice to hurt takes precedence over the victim's choice not to be hurt. Well, at least he helps us get over it.

Hahahhahaaaa....1) Pretty funny. Oh yeah.
The Fundies would look funnnndie if they applied literalism to the symbolism in Revelation.2) I love them, but I rebuke them for tooo literal interpretation of the ancient wisdom of the smartest Jews who ever lived, the bible writers.That, in these writings, they ignor the presence of things such as metaphor, analogy, simile, poetic license, and the full range of literary skills and techniques, and then, remember that one important intended result of scripture was that it be read by every generation, be a "best seller" for 3500 years, well... as you point out, that is just too funnnndie.3) The reason I left out the whole parts you mentioned was that the twoedged sword which comes out of "his" mouth is too sharp. I didn't want to cut the secular community AND the religious community with what words come out of the mouth. He, of course, is The Word. Religious people would recognize, and seculars might recall, that He, Jesus, is always called: The Word.Scripture, (The Bible), IS Him! He is the living Word. "In the beginning was the Word... and the Word was God, "... (John 1:1)4) Note the rational symbolism used here:Rev. 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars,(the seven psychic "angels;" Id, Libido, EGO, Anima, Self, Superego, Harmony): and out of his mouth, (the words that He said) went a sharp (cutting) twoedged (secular and religious) sword (argument): and (The Word) "his" countenance (appearing as institutionalized Christianity) was as (socially established) as the sun (of the State) shineth in his strength (of a two billion Christian membership).[This message has been edited by kofh2u, 04-16-2004]