I want to be convinced - an experiment

I think it's debatable whether or not history is a science. It depends whether or not you consider such things as economics or literary criticism "sciences." I'm of two minds about it, myself. Says you. Yet, it's almost trivial to find Bible accounts that don't match historical events or that simply are physically impossible. The Noaic Flood. The Exodus. The Tower of Babel. Jonah and the Whale. I could go on but there's more than enough to dispel the Bible as a literally true account.The fact that some events and places in the Bible actually happened or actually exist is hardly enough to substantiate the lot of them. After all, Verona, Italy is a real place. I've been there. But the fact that there's literally a Verona, Italy doesn't make Romeo and Juliet a true story. The thing about real history is that it repeats itself. Wars happen over and over again. Reproduction happens over and over again. Discovery happens over and over again. These are all events that every human knows are possible because every human who has ever lived experiences these events.But show me a man turning water into wine. Show me a man riding for three days in the belly of a fish. Show me a man dying on the cross and then rising again three days later, only to magically beam up to his father's right hand.It's hard for a rational person to lend credence to the veracity of these accounts when, by your own admission, the only time they have ever happened or ever will happen is only once, 2000 years ago.History is believable because it consists of things that happen again and again, that anyone who lives can experience. Mythology, including the stories of the Bible, are typified by the fact that nobody will ever experience them again.

Actually, memory studies and crime statistics prove that eyewitness accounts are the worst proof of all. Human memory isn't videotape. It's far too easily influenced by other people telling us what we should remember.Eyewitness testimony is perhaps the worst evidence still permissable in court. It's one step above hearsay, in my book.

I tend to see many of the stories in the Bible not so much as literal yet not as myths either. For example, take Noah and the Flood. What is the underlying message of this tale?
Gen 6:9=This is the account of Noah.Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked with God.(The best that a human can be)Gen 6:11-13= Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, "I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.(God is telling a righteous man how the rest of the people are hopelessly wicked. What can we learn from this story in todays world? )
Who determines when a people become hopeless? The people or God? When does a criminal become incorrigible? I am a believer. Zach, but I have heard two sides to this fact. Thousands of others have seen the Bible not so historically accurate. I suspect that this question goes deep into spiritual war and hidden agendas, so I do not really know or care which side is right. I do believe that the Bible as Gods character expressed in interaction with humanity is flawless. The flaws within the book come from humanity--not from God. In the Bible are three types expressed in the original Greek: "First we will define the Greek usages and words as a foundation. Eros, phileo, and agape are the three pre-biblical words for love.Eros was "the name of the little demon deity whose image dances on the Valentines of our time. Among the Romans his name was Cupid, the lusty off-spring of the voluptuous goddess, Venus." The ancient Greeks considered the demon Eros as the central driving force, motivation, all that man is in attitude, ambition and action.The worship of Eros also brought much of the music into the Greek culture and was designed for the temples of fertility to stimulate sensual ecstasy.The dance of modern burlesque was performed by the prostitute priestesses to call the male worshippers to sexual frenzy, whereby they sought to lose themselves from their "dismal daily lives." The second Greek usage, one which we do find in our NewTestament, is the word "phileo." Where erotic-love is the demonic lust of the flesh for flesh, phileo-love is the natural affection in all people for the appetite of the senses. Eros is Immoral, so phileois ammoral. It can be both good and bad, both wicked or right, depending on the moral condition of the lovers. Such as meant by Paul in Titus 1:15,"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled."
"Therefore, it is an unchangeable fact that phileo-affection is the deepest affection known by the unconverted. It is no wonder God warned against "mixed" marriages between the saved and the lost. To continue with phileo, it is a very emotional centered affection and an affection based upon one being satisfied by the object. Once this satisfaction is gone, so is the phileo. If the object of phileo assumes any attitudes or actions which are displeasing, the phileo disappears in direct proportion to the displeasure. Marriages based on phileo can be very fulfilling, only if both spouses continue to satisfy the pleasures of the other spouse and do not begin to become very critical or negative.

I think that it's important for people not to conflate the word "myths" with the word "lies" in every situation. Yes, when we say that something is a myth, we often mean that it is not true.Myth has another meaning, though. Myths are the stories that cultures tell themselves, not because they're literally true stories, but because they teach figurativly true morals.Romeo and Juliet could be considered a myth. It didn't really happen. Yet, it says something very true about love.Don't make the mistake of thinking that when I or other people refer to the Bible stories as "myths" that we're saying that they're lies. Nothing could be further from the truth. The myths of the Bible confer real truths about the human condition. They can do that without the stories being literally true.I just bring this up because it shouldn't be necessary for a person to have to specify that the Bible stories are "more true than myths." Myths can be plenty true on their own.

Yes, like someone said (forgot who):"Just because something didn't happen, doesn't mean it's not true"

Hmmmmmm another interesting concept. You will note that in this forum, it is unusual to argue starting with the assumption that god exists and that the bible is the inerrant word of god.I,and many others, do not accept that the bible was written or inspired by god. So when you quote the bible to me, it has no special meaning. You may as well quote from " The Washington Post ".When referring to the word love, I was referring to the English definition, which is what we are communicating in. I thank you for the history lesson about Greek and Roman gods, but in terms of present day interpretations of love, do you still contend that a mother with atheist beliefs cannot have genuine love for her child ?If certain things were "unchallengable" as you wrote, there would be no need for debating forums such as this one. The very existence of god is challengable.This may be a wild guess, but of all the hundreds of religions and denominations that exist around the world, do you assert that it is only the supernatural being that you believe in who can dish out genuine love ?

I suppose, neil, that for clarification we should ask what the source of love is? If the source is merely biological, I can see where you have a point. I do not believe that love is merely a biological phenomenon.

I lustfully submit that you know very little about science. If you want to know what science is, you should read up on it. Otherwise discussing it with you is futile.Yes scientists believe what they see and test and retest to prove or
DISPROVE their theory.Do you see a problem with this approach?Eyewitness acccounts of course can be challenged. How do you deal with the eyewitness acccounts of people who claim to have seen and been abducted by aliens? So you would argue that their accounts cannot be denied? Yes ?In the case of the bible's so called eyewitness accounts, the people who did so are dead and cannot be questioned about what they saw. Even in the case of eyewitness accounts in today's courts, witnesses are not considered very reliable.Do you have 100% proof that the eyewitness accounts in the bible are correct? If so how do you know? Please don't quote the bible, that would be circular reasoning.

The accounts of Jesus where written beginning with Mark some 70 years after his death. Of all the authors only Mark and John are possible eyewitnesses According to Theologians. Hitlers skull cap is currently being stored in a vault in the Old KGB headquarters building at the Kremlin. The couch soaked with his blood, His art collection and his uniforms as well. Stalin was an avid collector of Hitlers personal belongings. I that is true then why even bother studying history? Zach, Faith in something is believing it in the absence of facts. You do not need a book to believe in God.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

Semantics is the problem.People who believe can't know, because they believed too quickly, too easily.They really did not need a rational picture of the whole complicated and complex theological dovetailing of scripture. They got the basic idea, albeit Intuitively.
That is cool.That's what is meant by faith.Science people ought relate to this intuitive process because they use it, too. Like, before some ideas are really flushed out, be ore they seem exactly right, the scientist sort knew he was on to the right direction.A few first steps, a hypothesis, and one or two provable theories, and bango! Eureka! "I know this is right!"Dalton saw Atoms as the basic unit of matter, little solid balls banging together in the Kinetic Theory of Matter, right!Wrong. They're not solid. But, he still knew he was ALMOST right. He had enough to make him BELIEVE.All you need is a step by step rationale that you know makes sense.At some point, as the reasoning gets more convincing, you'll know it seems right. Sooner or later, with enough to rely on, you'll BELIEVE.The first step is to hypothesize a definition for the terminology God. You'll need a concept for God which you will be able to relate to: some all powerful, all controlling entity that makes sense to you.Try starting at page one, and let's just read a couple of passage
to break the ice:Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God, (The Universal Force) created the heaven and the earth.Gen. 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God (the Natural Laws) moved upon the face of the waters.THEN SKIP DOWN:
These couple of verses prepare us for the coming evolution of Jesus in the New Testament:Gen. 1:26 And God, (The Universal Force, the Macrocosmos), said, "Let us, (the Natural Laws), make man, (a conscious mind, to model us, the Universe, as in a Microcosmos of his mind, in order that our image might be modeled after our own orderly organization): and let him (that conscious mind,) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."Gen. 1:27 So God (The Universal Force) created man (an abstract mind in his own image, enabled to image The Universal Force, abstractly and mathematically), so created God (The Universal Force) him; male and female created he them.

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I said for me life got better. The change is from within. I no longer am searching for something to fill the void I always felt. I tried the drinking and chasing women, I was a good athlete, had lots of friends yet their was always something missing. When I finally came back to my upbringing and followed Jesus that filled that void that I had. I am now satisfied with life, I am not chasing that something else which never seems to work, and I have a great peace that when I die I know where I will be going. That's what makes life better. IF I followed your line of thinking, when you become a Christian your family will never die, you will get everything you need, and you will never have problems again. Obviously that is not the case. It's the peace and knowledge that my sins have been forgivin that makes life so much better. God has changed me and that is what makes life worth living.

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Funny, it was only when my belief in the supernatural ended that I truly found contentment and happiness.Religion and trying to believe in something that wasn't there was what made me unhappy.

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The ACLU doesn't want allow Christian symbols in public areas. Wow, they really must be the devil.

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My point here is that they seem to target only the Christian religion.

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Well, what other US religious groups think that they have some kind of right to force their views into public spaces?It's really only the fundamentalist Christians who boneheadedly think that our government aught to endorse their religion. I guess they don't really believe in the Constitution.Oh, and here is a very interesting instance of the ACLU defending a very high profile Christian ( I wonder if ol' Jerry is going to stop bashing the ACLU now?):"In Win for Rev. Falwell (and the ACLU), Judge Rules VA Must Allow Churches to Incorporate (04/17/2002)
RICHMOND, VA--A federal judge has struck down a provision of the Virginia Constitution that bans religious organizations from incorporating, in a challenge filed by the Rev. Jerry Falwell and joined by the American Civil Liberties Union of Virginia, the group announced today."

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So now that you believe that GOD exists you have to study the bible, read the whole thing. I would start at the New Testament and then go to the Old Testament. This will allow you to see quite clearly how the prophets in the early days foretold everything mentioned in the New Testament. It backs up all the claims.

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Or, the writers of the New Testament wrote it with the Old Testament open next to them so they made sure to "fulfill" everything that nedded to be to make Jesus the messiah.

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Love is not an evolved chemical bonding concept.

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Sure it is.It's called "oxytocin."Page Redirection

Dear Sarde,
sad to say, merely today I've found your very important appeal.
Since I've a lot of correspondence (also through snail mail) all around the world, sorry, I'm not able to read and study that site WEB you quoted in your first post. But I am at your disposal for help you to answer to any questions you have about Christianity. I'm a Bible teacher for 35 years and I'm studying logic, history, archaeology, physics, astronomy, ancient languages and other. And, more important point I say you for preview that the true Christianity is the best way of life and the best way to answer the basic question of the our existence (evolutioon/creation matters included).
In every case, before starting it, I have to know only one basic information about your beliefs.
Do you believe in a personal God who created the Universe (it means here "the ensemble that includes all things that exist"), or not?You see that according your answer we may start from different points, you see?If you would prefer to corresponding by snail mail, I send you my personal address.

Groetjes Sarde,
There is only one person in the whole world who can convince you of God and that is God. Every one of mans arguments can be argued against and there is no way to be sure based on any of mans arguments. God is the only one capable of revealing himself to you in such a way as make sure that you KNOW he is there. Any belief based on non-God evidence is prone to be shook by a better argument that may arrive in the future. It has to be God who makes you a believer in him. It doesn't matter whether you know all the facts and arguements before hand. All you have to do is know. That'll be enough to start with.If you investigate all the religions/cults in the world: Roman Catholicism, Buddism, Hinduism, Islam, Jehovahs witness, Mormans etc etc you will quickly find one thing in common with them all: Your position with respect to the god they represent is determined by what YOU do. YOUR actions have a part to play in influencing your standing before the god in question. Be it: being good, meditating, seeking enlightenment,praying at certain times, eating certain meals, being forgiven for sins on a periodic basis, seeking knowledge etc, etc.The word Religion derives from the Latin Re (meaning 'concerning, about) and Legio (meaning 'the law'). Religion is about law and following those laws, norms, diktats, edicts, set by the authority in question. In short, if you want to get to god just follow the laws. That's Religion.If God exists then he is likely to do things that with a bit of flair. A bit of style. You would expect the unexpected. A couple that I experienced with respect to becoming a believer:It isn't what you do that determines your position before God. It's what God has done for you. God is the one who reveals himself, who saves you, who does all the work. You don't contribute to it or take away from those things by your actionsGods law is not something that you are meant to follow as a way to getting to him. His law is intended for one thing only: and that is to make you realise that you can't follow Gods lawWhen you realise that you can't follow Gods laws (not all the time anyway) then the law has done its work. If you read the small piece at the end of Romans 7 "Oh wretched man..." and see something in there that your heart agrees with somehow, then the law has really done it's work. You are almost there.It doesn't matter how far you think you are away from God. God is always close. He wants you to come to him. He is actively working to bring you to him. Remember, HE does the work not you. This is a prayer which kind of shows just how far you can be away but he is at work anyway.Lord, I don't love you
I don't want to love you
But I want to want to love you(Can you imagine proposing to a husband/wife like that!!) That's how much God loves you though. He will respond to a prayer (from the heart) like thatThere is no prayer which has magical properties to make God jump in. Prayer are just words. It's the heart behind those words that God listens to. And He helps you in forming those words too. God loves you, God wants you. If you want him, or maybe you have no place else to turn and cry out to him in despair, He will come. Maybe not at the time and place you expect or want. But if your heart wants Him, he will come. God doesn't tell lies....Tot horensiano