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Author Topic:   Is this Bible verse about believers and poison to be taken literally?
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 46 of 142 (203054)
04-27-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Dan Carroll
04-27-2005 1:35 PM


Re: Metaphor
quote:
Except that it's not simply drinking poison. It's reading God's word, in which it is stated that God will protect you, and trusting God to keep him promise.
Is that trust idiotic?
It's like swimming way out into the ocean without the means of getting back, then calling on God and saying 'ok, I'm here, now get me there'.
Therefore, it is meant metaphorically.
Come let us reason together, says the Lord......
I see no reason or logic in drinking poison.

Pascal's Wager......nice try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-27-2005 1:35 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-27-2005 4:37 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

  
PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6872 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 47 of 142 (203057)
04-27-2005 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
04-27-2005 1:51 PM


Re: Metaphor
Well, if it was an acid he'd probably be okay. If it was a base though ...
>>>>>>>>>
Aslan is the only lion, eh, Jar?
Who knows what that character stuck his hand into. But, he was having fun claiming impervious.

Pascal's Wager......nice try.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 04-27-2005 1:51 PM jar has not replied

  
mick
Member (Idle past 4986 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 48 of 142 (203069)
04-27-2005 4:16 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Faith
04-27-2005 11:10 AM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Faith writes:
You insist on YOUR meaning of "literal" ... and YOUR meaning of "interpretation"
hi Faith
you really stuck it to Schrafinator there.
Schrafinator is so old-fashioned when he thinks that the world "literal" has a single unambiguous meaning.
I think you have successfully shown that you have YOUR understanding of literal, and other people have their own. Just the same as the way that you have YOUR understanding of "tomato".
You must have noticed that in supermarkets you always see bags labelled with "tomato", but containing potatoes, apples, and oranges. This is always happening to me.
Of course when i say "labelled with tomato" I mean that the apples, potatoes and oranges are actually loose, in buckets, and not labelled at all.
I have to warn you that I'm using MY understanding of the word "labelled". When I say that vegetables and fruit are provided in "labelled" bags, I mean that they are in buckets.
It's a bit eccentric of me, I admit. My friends always say i'm eccentric when I go out to buy tomatoes but come back with apples.
Of course my friends are using THEIR understanding of the word "eccentric".
mick

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Faith, posted 04-27-2005 11:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-27-2005 5:26 PM mick has not replied

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 142 (203076)
04-27-2005 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by PecosGeorge
04-27-2005 3:48 PM


Re: Metaphor
It's like swimming way out into the ocean without the means of getting back, then calling on God and saying 'ok, I'm here, now get me there'.
Except that God didn't say "go ahead and swim out into the ocean; I'll pull you back."
I see no reason or logic in drinking poison.
It will convert Schraf, thereby saving her soul.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PecosGeorge, posted 04-27-2005 3:48 PM PecosGeorge has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by CK, posted 04-27-2005 4:41 PM Dan Carroll has not replied
 Message 64 by arachnophilia, posted 04-28-2005 4:44 AM Dan Carroll has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 50 of 142 (203079)
04-27-2005 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Dan Carroll
04-27-2005 4:37 PM


Re: Metaphor
I still think my idea is better.
It's the perfect test - is God going to let his followers die just to frustrate me! It's the perfect chance for him to prove he is not an evil god!

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 142 (203083)
04-27-2005 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by mick
04-27-2005 4:16 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Except it ISN'T my meaning against her meaning. My meaning is the meaning assigned by the historical Church, you know, millions of people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by mick, posted 04-27-2005 4:16 PM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by sidelined, posted 04-27-2005 8:13 PM Faith has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 52 of 142 (203146)
04-27-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Faith
04-27-2005 5:26 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Faith
My meaning is the meaning assigned by the historical Church, you know, millions of people.
WE are obviously done then since the historical church has,no doubt,it's own dictionary which is accesible only to beleivers.Oh,how silly we were to think that meaning would be availanble to all rather than only those with "special" understanding.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 04-27-2005 5:26 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 142 (203157)
04-27-2005 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by sidelined
04-27-2005 8:13 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Yeah it IS extremely silly of you to think you can decide the meaning of a text that you don't believe in or care a fig about, same as Ms. Schrafinator, against the understanding of centuries of believers in it.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-27-2005 8:47 PM Faith has replied
 Message 67 by nator, posted 04-28-2005 10:06 AM Faith has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 54 of 142 (203159)
04-27-2005 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
04-27-2005 8:43 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Yeah it IS extremely silly of you to think you can decide the meaning of a text that you don't believe in or care a fig about, same as Ms. Schrafinator, against the understanding of centuries of believers in it.
Excellent. So we'll hear no more from you about the Koran?
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 04-27-2005 8:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Faith, posted 04-27-2005 9:08 PM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 55 of 142 (203167)
04-27-2005 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Primordial Egg
04-27-2005 8:47 PM


Re: It has a specific context, doesn't mean "all"
Show ONE place where I've given an interpretation of a Koranic passage except to show where they've falsified the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-27-2005 8:47 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 56 of 142 (203224)
04-28-2005 1:11 AM


ScriptureRevisited (KJV)
Mark 16:15 And he (Jesus) said unto them (the eleven) 'Go ye (the eleven) into all the world (mankind), and preach the gospel to every creature (mankind).'
16:16 'He (mankind) that believeth and is baptised (by one or more of the eleven) shall be saved; but he (mankind) that believeth not shall be damned.'
16:17 'And these signs (coming up) shall follow them (baptised mankind) that believe; In my (Jesus) name shall they (baptised mankind) cast out devils; they (baptised mankind)shall speak with new tongues.'
16:18 'They (baptised mankind)shall take up serpents; and if they (baptised mankind) drink any deadly thing, it (deadly thing) shall not hurt them (baptised mankind); They (baptised mankind) shall lay hands on the sick, and they (the sick) shall recover.'
16:20 And they (the eleven) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them (the eleven), and confirming the word with signs following ( baptised mankind fulfilling Jesus` words)
What`s so difficult to understand about these Scriptures?

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by mikehager, posted 04-28-2005 1:19 AM Nighttrain has replied

  
mikehager
Member (Idle past 6466 days)
Posts: 534
Joined: 09-02-2004


Message 57 of 142 (203225)
04-28-2005 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by Nighttrain
04-28-2005 1:11 AM


Re: ScriptureRevisited (KJV)
I agree. It seems pretty clear to me, but of course, as has been pointed out to me by several theists, many verses in the bible actually don't mean what they say. That's fine. This verse does not actually mean that a baptized Christian can drink poison and live and heal the sick.
Ok. It doesn't mean what it says. Metaphor and simile and all that junk I learned in college.
So, uh, how do you tell when the bible means what it says and when it doesn't, and why do so many believers disagree on this? Just curious.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Nighttrain, posted 04-28-2005 1:11 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Nighttrain, posted 04-28-2005 1:47 AM mikehager has not replied
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 58 of 142 (203227)
04-28-2005 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by mikehager
04-28-2005 1:19 AM


Re: ScriptureRevisited (KJV)
Guess you gotta prop up your sect/cult/group/splinter/mainstream any way you can, Mike

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 59 of 142 (203231)
04-28-2005 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
04-25-2005 10:24 PM


They were actually fulfilled in scripture
I mentioned this earlier but it needs emphasis. Focusing on poison led me to forget just how much scripture itself shows the fulfillment of Mark 16. Others here have given the scripture of Paul's not being harmed by a poisonous snake. Matthew Henry, the 18th century commentator I quoted earlier, says not being harmed by drinking poison is something reported in the history of the early church.
There are many healings and miracles reported in the Book of Acts, not all by the original apostles, but some by subordinates who were also evangelizing.
The whole report ought to get across what the Mark passage referred to: not ALL but SOME, according to the Holy Spirit, had SOME gifts. Their purpose was to establish the divine source of the Church in the pagan world. The "gift of miracles" should cover surviving poison. "Tongues" and "healings" are also specifically listed as gifts of the Holy Spirit.
1Cr 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1Cr 12:28-31 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. [Are] all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? But covet earnestly the best gifts...
Specifically about the gift of tongues as prophesied in Mark 16:
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Act 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
We have these reports in scripture now, reports of the supernatural manifestations among the early believers -- that's why they are not being done any more. As I argued earlier in this thread, Jesus said we are to believe what we are told about Him and His work and not demand to see in order to believe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 04-25-2005 10:24 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 60 of 142 (203232)
04-28-2005 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by mikehager
04-28-2005 1:19 AM


Re: ScriptureRevisited (KJV)
Ok. It doesn't mean what it says. Metaphor and simile and all that junk I learned in college.
Oh yes it means what it says. I finally got it sorted out in Message 59
So, uh, how do you tell when the bible means what it says and when it doesn't, and why do so many believers disagree on this? Just curious.
It always means what it says, but you have to take it in context and you can't assume you can tell what it means unless you know the context.
Believers are a varied bunch with different levels of knowledge, that's all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by mikehager, posted 04-28-2005 1:19 AM mikehager has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by DBlevins, posted 04-28-2005 4:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 68 by nator, posted 04-28-2005 10:12 AM Faith has not replied

  
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