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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind's debates, can someone help?
nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 31 of 127 (96818)
04-01-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 10:28 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
quote:
That doesn't necessarily make Hovind wrong and you right though since neither were there when it was formed.
Imagine you are the last person alive on the planet, Buz.
You go to sleep one cloudy winter's night.
You wake up in the morning and you notice lots of cold, fluffy white stuff on the ground.
Accoding to your reasoning, it's impossible for you to make any determination at all about how that snow got there.
Nobody witnessed it, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 10:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 10:47 PM nator has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 127 (96819)
04-01-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
04-01-2004 10:20 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
"If you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights? Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light. Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour."
I dono. Is one light ray emitted or are multiple rays being perpetually emitted from the radiating filament?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 04-01-2004 10:20 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by nator, posted 04-02-2004 7:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 127 (96820)
04-01-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by nator
04-01-2004 10:42 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
Accoding to your reasoning, it's impossible for you to make any determination at all about how that snow got there.
Apples and potatoes. With the snow there's no question as it is observed frequently. (GONG!)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by nator, posted 04-01-2004 10:42 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6096 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 34 of 127 (96821)
04-01-2004 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 10:47 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
quote:
Apples and potatoes. With the snow there's no question as it is observed frequently. (GONG!)
And erosion isn't?
Edited to change "doesn't" to "isn't."
[This message has been edited by Cynic1, 04-01-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 127 (96824)
04-01-2004 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 10:28 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
That doesn't necessarily make Hovind wrong and you right though since neither were there when it was formed.
The difference is that there is substantial evidence to support the scientific theories which describe the grand canyon being carved over millenia by common proccesses which are understood. Additionally, science doesn't require you to be present at a an event to look at teh evidence after the event and find a scietific explanation. There are numerous impact craters on earth (and on virtually any planetary body we can examine with a telescope). The evidence of the impact is enough to justify the theory of enourmous impacts by meteorites which cause the deformation. In fact, being present at such an event first hand would probably be a bad idea. Meanwhile, there is no physical evidence for a world wide flood, no mechanics for it to occur, and there is a decided lack of water on this planet for it to occur. What makes Hovind's statements wrong is that he asserts opinions as fact without evidence or proper research. He is notorious for setting up strawmen attacks by misrepresting or flat out lying about what science actually does claim. Hovind, who may be a fine preacher, continues to misrepresent current scietific models so badly that even fellow christian creationists look at his arguements as poor, and often dishonest. Now, when the ICR looks at his works and calls it bullshit, and advises that his arguements are so poor that shouldn't be used, it makes one wonder why anyone would take Hovind seriously.
[This message has been edited by Darwin Storm, 04-01-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 10:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 127 (96825)
04-01-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 10:28 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
Well I can certainly tell you that virtually all of Hovinds thoughts about flood geology is not very good. That includes his interpretation of the grand canyon and especially his 'critique' of the uniformitarian explanation.
Cheers,
-Chris Grose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 10:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 37 of 127 (96830)
04-01-2004 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by nator
04-01-2004 10:20 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
quote:
"If you are traveling down the highway at sixty miles an hour, and turn your headlights on, how fast is the light going from your headlights? Compared to you, it is going at the speed of light. Compared to someone on the sidewalk it is going at the speed of light plus sixty miles an hour."
I just find this funny, because he obviously never read anything about general relativity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by nator, posted 04-01-2004 10:20 PM nator has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 127 (96842)
04-01-2004 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by nator
04-01-2004 10:33 PM


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you have never read Darwin's "Origin of Species", Buz, am I right?
You're right, but I've checked out the Hovind info and it is corroborated from what appears to be reliable sources.
So why do you take the word of someone with a diploma mill PhD, a record of tax evasion, and who believes in fire-breathing dragons regarding a book you have never read?
Be honest, fair and balanced now, Schraf. Tax evasion or legally/lawfully tax smart. What has he ever been convicted of tax wise??
As for his education, in Aug, 03, EvC, MessenjaH posted this quote from Hovind.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" Every once in a while someone will ask me the question, "Where did you get your degree?" While I am not the least bit ashamed of my education, I have learned by experience that they could be asking the question because they have come to the point where they cannot attack the message I bring against evolution so they wish to attack me personally instead. This is called an ad hominem argument. They mistakenly think that by belittling the man they have answered his points and won the debate. When the opponent in a debate begins using ad hominem attacks, it is an obvious signal that they are losing the debate on facts and must resort to other means to try to save face or divert attention. It is also interesting to watch how the evolutionists will spend much time and effort scrutinizing a subject like my degree or credentials yet won't spend 2 seconds scrutinizing how ridiculous the evolution theory is! They truly strain at a gnat and swallow a camel. Matthew 23:24
Back to the degree question. I took advanced math and science classes at East Peoria High School graduating in 1971. I earned my first 60 (+ or -) credit hours majoring in math and science at Illinois Central College in East Peoria, Illinois. I then transferred to Midwestern Baptist College in Pontiac, Michigan where I double majored in education and the Bible and graduated in 1974. (I took 18-20 hours each semester plus summer school to graduate in 3 years.) While I taught math and science in Christian schools for the next 15 years I took courses at several Bible colleges in my spare time. I finished my Masters (1988) and Doctorate (1991) degrees in education from Patriot University. At the time it was small Christian university in Colorado Springs that offered an extension program for people involved in full time ministries. I was taking courses from Patriot University (established 1980) while it was a ministry of Hilltop Baptist Church and offered a Ph.D. in education. I spent many years working on my degree and learned a lot - as anyone who has watched my debates with evolutionists or seminar series will testify.
Long after I graduated, Patriot became independent of the church, moved their offices into a house and dropped the Ph.D. in their education program. Some ill informed scoffers have even circulated a picture of the house where they are now located. I don't understand their logic but evidently they think this somehow discredits me. Patriot allowed students to give offerings to the school instead of a regular tuition payment. Some scoffers have laughed at this idea yet they don't seem to realize how many thousands have gone through secular schools without using any of their own money via grants, scholarships or their parent's savings. Some have ridiculed the size of the school. If Harvard offers a Ph.D. degree program with only 3 or 4 students (this happens at many schools- sometimes with only 1 student), does the small number automatically mean they are not "earning their degree" or that they are attending a "diploma mill" school? Of course not! Nearly all schools offer classes by correspondence. My 250-page dissertation dealt with the subject of the effects of teaching evolution on the students in our public school system.
My 20-year study of the creation evolutionism subject led me to start Creation Science Evangelism in 1991. I now speak over 700 times each year on the subject, have had 40+ debates and have been a guest on over 3500 radio and television talk shows. My itinerary is available from my office or on my web site, and any evolutionist interested in a public debate any place they chose is welcome to contact me to arrange a time while I am in their area. Since they think I don't have a degree, they can call me Kent, Mr. Hovind or even "hey you," if it will make them feel better. Since they don't think I am "properly educated" it should be easy for them to demonstrate how wrong I am and how much evidence there is for evolution. I should be a pushover, but I am willing to debate them anyway and run the risk of publicly embarrassing myself. I hope this helps answer your question.
If you are looking for someone with advanced degrees in science, I do not have them and have never claimed that I did. If you would like the names of scientists who support the young earth creationist position you may want to contact the Institute for Creation Research at 619-448-0900 or The Institute for Creation Research | The Institute for Creation Research. They can supply you with a list. I only claim to have many years experience in studying the subject and the common sense to know that the universe is too complex to have happened without an incredibly smart designer (whom I happen to know personally as my savior).
By the way, Darwin's only degree was in theology yet he is often called a great scientist in textbooks today. Who and what determines who gets to be called a "scientist" and why don't these scoffers put the same effort into correcting textbooks that call "Reverend" Darwin a scientist?
Darwin was, in fact, quite anti-racist for a white man of his day,........
Yah sure, of course. He had extermination in mind instead of slavery, didn't he?
I hope you will use your new found interest in "Origin of Species" to actually read it! Conveniently, the entire text is available on line here:
What else besides most of the original title has been altered or omitted?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 04-01-2004 11:27 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 40 by Cynic1, posted 04-01-2004 11:30 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 04-02-2004 8:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 56 by JonF, posted 04-02-2004 10:12 AM Buzsaw has replied
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 39 of 127 (96844)
04-01-2004 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 11:22 PM


What makes you think the title has been altered? And do you honestly think that a site like Talk Origins would use an altered text on their site? A text that would be extremely easy to verify?

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 12:04 AM Asgara has replied

Cynic1
Member (Idle past 6096 days)
Posts: 78
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 40 of 127 (96850)
04-01-2004 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
04-01-2004 11:22 PM


quote:
Yah sure, of course. He had extermination in mind instead of slavery, didn't he?
Please post support of this claim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 04-01-2004 11:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 127 (96851)
04-01-2004 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Darwin Storm
04-01-2004 10:49 PM


Re: Kent vs AIG
DS, I don't want to go off topic about the canyon, but the recent cut canyon model Mt St. Helens produced says a lot and all the ramifications for the creo argument are significant, including factors about preflood earth topography and atmospheric conditions, all interpretive relative to ones views, including Hovind's as well as many qualified scientists and physicists who agree with much of what Hovind is saying.

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 127 (96879)
04-02-2004 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Asgara
04-01-2004 11:27 PM


What makes you think the title has been altered? And do you honestly think that a site like Talk Origins would use an altered text on their site? A text that would be extremely easy to verify?
Do a google on "On the Origin of Species by means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life." or key phrases of this. You should get a number of hits. I dono. I'm questioning other stuff. If the title has been changed it seems logical that the text might also be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Asgara, posted 04-01-2004 11:27 PM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2004 12:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

Asgara
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 43 of 127 (96884)
04-02-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
04-02-2004 12:04 AM


Buz Darlin',
I don't need to Google this. I know what the full name of the book is. Where are you saying it was changed? The link Shraf gave you does not have an altered name attached to the book. Did you even go look?

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 12:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Buzsaw, posted 04-02-2004 12:16 AM Asgara has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 127 (96889)
04-02-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Cynic1
04-01-2004 11:30 PM


Cynic, check message 6 in RACIAL EVOLUTION 101 where I've already covered this.

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Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 127 (96893)
04-02-2004 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Asgara
04-02-2004 12:09 AM


Asgara, does your copy have the full original title on the cover or title page?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2004 12:09 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Asgara, posted 04-02-2004 12:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

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