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Author Topic:   Miracle Of The Sun & Other Musings
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 327 (880830)
08-12-2020 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Phat
08-11-2020 10:04 PM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
Phat writes:
So you are essentially defining what God can do? Oh I get it...God is limited by science. God can move the sun any way shape or form that he so chooses. The only thing God cannot force to move is jars will and perceived intelligence. Thats the real sticking point here.
You really never think do you? You insist on demonstrating what a pitiful deplorable God you worship.
Stop and think about the Fatima fantasy. A very few of the approximately 1.8 Billion people on Earth in 1917 see the sun moving in the sky. They don't all see the same thing. None of the other 1.8 Billion people saw anything. Either the people saw what they thought they should see or your God (Coyote) was just funning them and so made up a make believe scenario. Just for them. Just for SOME of them.
Physics works Phat. Changes leave evidence.
Either your God is not just vile and evil but also a conjurer, a carny shyster or the humans were having a fantasy. You only get to pick one.
Phat writes:
God may have only sought to impress upon the minds of the desperate believers the fact that He was present. The sun may not have actually moved, but was perceived to have done so. On the other hand, the God I worship could turn the sun into a giant pumpkin had He so wanted...and have been equally capable of suspending any physical consequences to the billions of humans here on earth.
And so you chose the trickster, the shyster; Coyote. Interesting.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Phat, posted 08-11-2020 10:04 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 08-12-2020 2:58 PM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 327 (880846)
08-12-2020 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
08-12-2020 7:37 AM


Re: Proudly Roman Catholic
OK I will go with the collective fantasy.I do not dismiss Gods capability to act on anyone individually and miraculously, but I will allow that your argument is sensible...that if God were to do it for some, He would do it for all. Thus if we do end up having a major miracle such as the Rapture of the Church, which I find an incredulous yet plausible belief, the whole world will see it. It wont be some secret although some say that the critters left behind will be evil enough to try and explain it away some other method. God owes it to nobody to take everyone, however. We are responsible for the decisions we make and what we do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 08-12-2020 7:37 AM jar has not replied

  
Trump won 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1240 days)
Posts: 1928
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 33 of 327 (880862)
08-13-2020 12:01 AM


i read an article today which generously paraphrased pope francis.
my gut reaction from hearing the holy father's words is that it may be time to walk back participation here, at least for a few days or weeks.
i don't think me blowing the prolife horn on here is helping. murder is normalized in our society. the left are murderous savages, but i think pope francis, who is in the seat of peter, is telling me to tone down my attacks.
i'm satisfied with the progress i've made here recently. the miracle of the sun is a mighty bugaboo to dyed in the world god deniers.

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 7:13 AM Trump won has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 327 (880868)
08-13-2020 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Trump won
08-13-2020 12:01 AM


About Popes And Presidents
PRC writes:
i don't think me blowing the prolife horn on here is helping. murder is normalized in our society. the left are murderous savages, but i think pope francis, who is in the seat of peter, is telling me to tone down my attacks.
I have always believed that God has allowed certain men to be in certain positions of power and influence to achieve His divine plan. Asd an example, take King Saul. Saul was far from a righteous man and yet was indirectly placed in power by God Himself.
Same with President Trump.
Now in regards to Pope Francis, many critics say that he is far too socialist and even Leftist for their liking. I notice that you respect his positional authority and will also not therefore attack him based on the accusations of Left Wing ideology. He was duly appointed as Pope and is in that position for a reason that only God knows for times such as these. I have some Catholic friends who disagree with his political ideology yet who usually don't openly criticize their Pope. So in essence I have two questions for you.
1) What do you think about the Prophecy allegedly through Malachi?
2) Being a political conservative, do you see any conflicts within the Catholic Church regarding Pope Francis or do you, like my other Catholic friends, refrain from public criticism of the Pope?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Trump won, posted 08-13-2020 12:01 AM Trump won has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 7:18 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 327 (880869)
08-13-2020 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
08-13-2020 7:13 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
Phat writes:
1) What do you think about the Prophecy allegedly through Malachi?
It's another great example of the length that true believers will go to to convince themselves that fantasy is reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 7:13 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 7:19 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 327 (880870)
08-13-2020 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-13-2020 7:18 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
Well I did notice that many commentators thought it was fake. Im just curious what PRC thinks about it.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 7:18 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 8:11 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 327 (880871)
08-13-2020 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
08-13-2020 7:19 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
Phat writes:
Well I did notice that many commentators thought it was fake.
Fake is probably the wrong word. It's a creation, a myth, a marketing device. It's like the Trinity, a human creation that serves some social purpose. In the case of the Trinity it was political; a method of excluding competing ideas. In the case of almost all prophecies it is a human creation to promote membership in a smaller sub-community.
Like the Fatima fantasy and the Exodus and the Conquest of Canaan they are all human creations, myths that are incorporated into a communal mythos.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 7:19 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:48 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 327 (880879)
08-13-2020 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
08-13-2020 8:11 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
Since when is absolute truth arrived at through consensus? All that consensus (amongst humans) does it give us a compromise that we can live with.
You may argue that the serpant told the truth in that we would not die and that we have as a species in fact flourished to this very day. I might point out, however, that the serpant may have told only a half truth. Yes, we would be *like God* yet we never have and never will *be God.* Nor will the fallen angel.
Hint: The way to win this argument is to ridicule me for my beliefs and throw me in a pile with all of the apologists while at the same time pointing out what the evidence shows regarding your interpretations and how the evidence shows that GOD is not interactive among humans and that the entirety of responsibility falls on us.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 8:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 11:55 AM Phat has replied
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 08-13-2020 12:04 PM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 327 (880880)
08-13-2020 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-13-2020 11:48 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
Phat writes:
Since when is absolute truth arrived at through consensus? All that consensus (amongst humans) does it give us a compromise that we can live with.
Since when has there ever been ANY absolute truth? And what the hell does that even have to do with anything I posted?
Phat writes:
You may argue that the serpant told the truth in that we would not die and that we have as a species in fact flourished to this very day. I might point out, however, that the serpant may have told only a half truth. Yes, we would be *like God* yet we never have and never will *be God.* Nor will the fallen angel.
See above.
Phat writes:
Hint: The way to win this argument is to ridicule me for my beliefs and throw me in a pile with all of the apologists while at the same time pointing out what the evidence shows regarding your interpretations and how the evidence shows that GOD is not interactive among humans and that the entirety of responsibility falls on us.
See above above.
Once again Phat, you simply resort to irrelevancies and utter nonsense instead of addressing what others post.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:58 AM jar has replied
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 08-15-2020 7:41 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 327 (880881)
08-13-2020 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
08-13-2020 11:55 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
My bad. I was thinking of the other argument in the Freewill vs Omniscience thread that I dredged up from you. Message 118
I brought it up here by mistake.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 11:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 08-13-2020 12:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 327 (880882)
08-13-2020 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
08-13-2020 11:58 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
But even then nothing you posted addressed the content of that message. You continue to market an indefensible evil God.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:58 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 42 of 327 (880884)
08-13-2020 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
08-13-2020 11:48 AM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
quote:
I might point out, however, that the serpant may have told only a half truth. Yes, we would be *like God* yet we never have and never will *be God.*
According to the story the serpent said that humans would become like God in knowing good and evil. According to the story they did just that, and God himself said so.
You have no excuse for not knowing that, so why are you continually disagreeing with the Bible in this point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 11:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 12:18 PM PaulK has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 327 (880886)
08-13-2020 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by PaulK
08-13-2020 12:04 PM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
I'm not disagreeing except to say that the story is not at that point complete. We became liberated humans in that we could decide our destiny for ourselves, but the rest of the story is that we also have the freedom to accept Jesus Christ and that too many people downplay that option and prefer to be "like gods" rather than willfully submit to God and reunite again, undoing the snakes dastardly scheme.
Too many people are ok with the snakes liberation it gave us from authority, little realizing that we need that authority.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by PaulK, posted 08-13-2020 12:04 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 08-13-2020 12:37 PM Phat has replied
 Message 65 by Aussie, posted 08-18-2020 2:57 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 44 of 327 (880890)
08-13-2020 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Phat
08-13-2020 12:18 PM


Re: About Popes And Presidents
quote:
Im not disagreeing except to say that the story is not at that point complete
I’d say that you are. What the serpent said in the story - that Adam and Eve would be like God in knowing good and evil - is not a half-truth according to the story itself.
quote:
WQe bacame liberated humans in that we could decide our destiny for ourselves, but the rest of the story is that we also have the freedom to accept Jesus Christ and that too many people downplay that option and prefer to be "like gods" rather than willfully submit to God and reunite again, undoing the snakes dastardly scheme.
So when you say that the story is not complete you mean that you want to add things to it. Now maybe in your story the serpent told your half truth, but is isn’t in the Bible. So at least have the honesty to admit that you are talking about a story you invented,
quote:
Too many people are ok with the snakes liberation it gave us from authority,little realizing that we need that authority.
We don’t need a theocratic dictatorship.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 08-13-2020 12:18 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Phat, posted 08-15-2020 7:37 AM PaulK has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 327 (880952)
08-15-2020 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
08-13-2020 12:37 PM


Concerning Carny Hucksters & Apologists
PaulK writes:
So when you say that the story is not complete you mean that you want to add things to it. Now maybe in your story the serpent told your half truth, but is isn’t in the Bible. So at least have the honesty to admit that you are talking about a story you invented,
OK, I will admit that. The reason that I and the apologists essentially invent a story that ties the Bible together as a cohesive message from Genesis to Revelation is not simply so that we can lie to the people and market our own made up story. It is because we believe that God is alive through Jesus Christ and that we have insight into what the Bible actually teaches. I note that among you, ringo and jar, all agree on a plain reading of the Bible with no interpretation being connected to other parts of the Bible and that of the 3 of you only jar claims to even be a believer.
And I think that this is an important point. jar despises the message of the apologists because he sees snake oil and carny hucksterism all over it. ringo is a leftist hippie who sees value in the message yet who does not believe that the characters exist outside the book itself. And you? I don't really know too much about your personal beliefs or why you are an atheist. You certainly seem to know your way around the Bible quite well and have never expressed contempt for the apologists as the other two do.

"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
***
We must realize that the Reformation world view leads in the direction of government freedom. But the humanist world view with inevitable certainty leads in the direction of statism. This is so because humanists, having no god, must put something at the center, and it is inevitably society, government, or the state.- Francis A. Schaeffer
The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.
- Criss Jami, Killosophy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 08-13-2020 12:37 PM PaulK has not replied

  
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