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Author Topic:   Biblical contradictions.
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 329 (7132)
03-17-2002 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by LudvanB
03-17-2002 3:58 PM


"None of the links you provided refutes in any credible way the contradictions in the link that i provided at the begining of this thread...at most,they attempt to blur the issue. "
--I can say the same thing to yourself, though it means nothing untill you can show why. So, why is it 'an attempt to blur the issue'?
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by LudvanB, posted 03-17-2002 3:58 PM LudvanB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by LudvanB, posted 03-17-2002 4:58 PM TrueCreation has not replied

LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 329 (7134)
03-17-2002 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by TrueCreation
03-17-2002 4:41 PM


http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~werdna/contradictions/contradictions1.html#20
well for instance in the above link,they try to weasel out of the contradictions on technicalities...take the exemple of spirits sent to deceive. They say that since the spirits and not God are SPEAKING the deception,then God isen't the one lying...which is technicaly true but certainly not in spirit,since the attempt of deception comes at God's command...hence,from him. If i tell someone to lie to you,i'd be equally guilty of the deception as the person actually wording it. Examine the links you provided. They are concistant in that line of thoughts...an attempt to loophole their way out of the contradiction argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by TrueCreation, posted 03-17-2002 4:41 PM TrueCreation has not replied

Jet
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 329 (7135)
03-17-2002 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudvanB
03-14-2002 9:49 AM


quote:
Originally posted by LudvanB:
http://www.webster.sk.ca/greenwich/bible-a.htm
Here's a link to an intriguing article i've come across last night...food for thoughts,perhaps?

I must wonder if the author of this site ever bothered to read an actual Bible, and if so, where did they get the wierd translation that they have used to make the erroneous claims that are made, and what level of education does this person have that they are unable to grasp even the most basic understanding of English grammatical text. I am not sure what "translation" of the Bible was used to support the obvious errors in this persons thinking, (maybe they simply typed up their own translation), but it is nothing close to any of the translations that I use. Does this person have even a basic understanding of Hebrew or Chaldee? I must doubt that they do, seeing as how they seem to have a very limited understanding of the proper use of the English grammatical text and how to maintain it within its' proper context. I have only a limited understanding of the Hebrew and Chaldee, but even I am able to properly utilize a concordance. This site was a waste of my valuable time. The author of this site is a walking oxymoron.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudvanB, posted 03-14-2002 9:49 AM LudvanB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by LudvanB, posted 03-17-2002 5:16 PM Jet has not replied
 Message 51 by doctrbill, posted 03-17-2002 7:54 PM Jet has not replied

LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 329 (7136)
03-17-2002 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jet
03-17-2002 5:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:

I must wonder if the author of this site ever bothered to read an actual Bible, and if so, where did they get the wierd translation that they have used to make the erroneous claims that are made, and what level of education does this person have that they are unable to grasp even the most basic understanding of English grammatical text. I am not sure what "translation" of the Bible was used to support the obvious errors in this persons thinking, (maybe they simply typed up their own translation), but it is nothing close to any of the translations that I use. Does this person have even a basic understanding of Hebrew or Chaldee? I must doubt that they do, seeing as how they seem to have a very limited understanding of the proper use of the English grammatical text and how to maintain it within its' proper context. I have only a limited understanding of the Hebrew and Chaldee, but even I am able to properly utilize a concordance. This site was a waste of my valuable time. The author of this site is a walking oxymoron.

I believe,though i'm not sure,that he uses the KJV. BTW,that was a nice diatribe...would you care to give specific exemple as to what quotation is taken out of context and what would be the correct context for it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jet, posted 03-17-2002 5:08 PM Jet has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 51 of 329 (7151)
03-17-2002 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Jet
03-17-2002 5:08 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Jet:
"... where did they get the wierd translation ... ?
... I am not sure what "translation" of the Bible was used ... but it is nothing close to any of the translations that I use.
... obvious errors ...
... erroneous claims ..."

A. You think the King James Version is "weird"?
B. You don't recognize or employ the King James Version?
C. Which "errors"? Which "erroneous claims"? Please specify.
D. Your criticism of the authors' scholarship and mastery of English might better be spent on yourself. Several times in one paragraph you refer to a singular subject by means of a plural pronoun. Example:
quote:
Jet:
"I must wonder if the author of this site ever bothered to read an actual Bible, and if so, where did they get the wierd translation ... and what level of education does this person have that they are unable to grasp even the most basic understanding of English grammatical text."
Regarding your attempt at further insult ...
quote:
"The author of this site is a walking oxymoron."
... why do I doubt you know the meaning of this word (oxymoron)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Jet, posted 03-17-2002 5:08 PM Jet has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Mister Pamboli, posted 03-19-2002 10:43 AM doctrbill has replied

Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 329 (7155)
03-17-2002 8:43 PM


Another interesting aspect of the bible, to me, is that all the bibles (KJV, ect) are all translations from the original languages. Anyone here who know more than one languages will realize that direct translations rarely work, and are more often then not nonsensical, especially if the grammer systems are very different. Consequently, a translater will TRY and keep the original meaning while tranlating it, though something is always a bit lost. So before you could even talk about the inerrancy of the bible, you have to contend with the fact that it is an imperfect translation. Additionaly, language rapidly changes, so alot of contextual meaning must be changed to make sense in current context. Additionaly, the defintions and meaning of words changes over time. So, additionaly, you have to deal with a change of any given language over time. Seems that there is alot of room for error there even if the original was inerrant ( which it was not.) .

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by compmage, posted 03-19-2002 5:21 AM Darwin Storm has not replied

compmage
Member (Idle past 5153 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 53 of 329 (7284)
03-19-2002 5:21 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Darwin Storm
03-17-2002 8:43 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm:
Another interesting aspect of the bible, to me, is that all the bibles (KJV, ect) are all translations from the original languages. Anyone here who know more than one languages will realize that direct translations rarely work, and are more often then not nonsensical, especially if the grammer systems are very different. Consequently, a translater will TRY and keep the original meaning while tranlating it, though something is always a bit lost. So before you could even talk about the inerrancy of the bible, you have to contend with the fact that it is an imperfect translation. Additionaly, language rapidly changes, so alot of contextual meaning must be changed to make sense in current context. Additionaly, the defintions and meaning of words changes over time. So, additionaly, you have to deal with a change of any given language over time. Seems that there is alot of room for error there even if the original was inerrant ( which it was not.) .
This is all good and well. It does however have very little baring on the tread. Unless you can provide the original texts used in the Bible we are forced to use the version(s) that are most commonly accepted.
Also translation might explain slight variations in meaning but could not explain a complete change in the order of events (creation according to Genesis).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-17-2002 8:43 PM Darwin Storm has not replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 54 of 329 (7297)
03-19-2002 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by doctrbill
03-17-2002 7:54 PM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
Several times in one paragraph you refer to a singular subject by means of a plural pronoun. Example:
et:
"I must wonder if the author of this site ever bothered to read an actual Bible, and if so, where did they get the wierd translation ... and what level of education does this person have that they are unable to grasp even the most basic understanding of English grammatical text."
Here's a first - I'm going to defend Jet! I guess this won't happen again, so make the best of it!
Several times I have seen people criticised for this construction - using "they" to refer to a third person singular. This is perfectly acceptable in English, at least on the east side fo the Atlantic. It is found in Chaucer ("And whoso fyndeth hym out of swich blame, They wol come up." from the Prologue to the Pardoner's Tale) and in Shakespeare ("There's not a man I meet but doth salute me,
As if I were their well-acquainted friend." Comedy of Errors.)
I use this a lot, and I do sometimes receive comments on it. But, really, it is a common, venerable usage of considerable utility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by doctrbill, posted 03-17-2002 7:54 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by doctrbill, posted 03-20-2002 2:07 AM Mister Pamboli has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 55 of 329 (7379)
03-20-2002 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Mister Pamboli
03-19-2002 10:43 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
Here's a first - I'm going to defend Jet! I guess this won't happen again, so make the best of it!
How noble of you! Hope you understand why I had to do that.
Have you any idea what he was ranting about? Was your keen sense of appropriate English offended by the writing on that site?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Mister Pamboli, posted 03-19-2002 10:43 AM Mister Pamboli has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Mister Pamboli, posted 03-20-2002 10:40 AM doctrbill has replied

Mister Pamboli
Member (Idle past 7576 days)
Posts: 634
From: Washington, USA
Joined: 12-10-2001


Message 56 of 329 (7402)
03-20-2002 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by doctrbill
03-20-2002 2:07 AM


quote:
Originally posted by doctrbill:
How noble of you! Hope you understand why I had to do that.
Have you any idea what he was ranting about? Was your keen sense of appropriate English offended by the writing on that site?

You can guess, I'm sure, that I agreed with all your points except the one about Jet's grammar. I guess I was just sounding off - having only been in the US for a few months I am still painfully adapting to this new language I have to learn!
I thought it was hilarious that Jet didn't recognize the KJV - and I would love to see some evidence of even basic knowledge of Hebrew or Chaldean. Sadly(?) I think Jet has departed this forum to spread their bile elsewhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by doctrbill, posted 03-20-2002 2:07 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by doctrbill, posted 03-20-2002 11:35 PM Mister Pamboli has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2764 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 57 of 329 (7455)
03-20-2002 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Mister Pamboli
03-20-2002 10:40 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Mister Pamboli:
I thought it was hilarious that Jet didn't recognize the KJV - and I would love to see some evidence of even basic knowledge of Hebrew or Chaldean. Sadly(?) I think Jet has departed this forum to spread their bile elsewhere.
Some people think that possession of a concordance makes them experts. Too bad it's not that simple. I've been fondling girlie magazines all my life and I still don't know a damned thing about women.
--------
db

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Mister Pamboli, posted 03-20-2002 10:40 AM Mister Pamboli has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by bretheweb, posted 04-02-2002 12:32 PM doctrbill has replied

DavidAlias
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 329 (8091)
04-02-2002 7:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Cravingjava
03-15-2002 10:14 AM


quote:
Originally posted by Cravingjava:
...it clearly fails to prove anything in regards to the falsehood of the Bible. It is only an opinion and nothing more.

OK, here's something you can explain to me:
In the story of Genesis, after Cain slew Abel, it says he went 'East of Eden into the Land of Nod, and there took himself a wife'.
My question is this: If Adam & Eve and their children were the only people on earth at the time, who was this woman that Cain took for a wife? Who was Nod for that matter? Were there other people on this planet before Adam and Eve? Has something been omitted? Was 'Gods Word' edited by men? If so, by whom? And what are the implications on the validity of the Bible as the infallible word of God if it has been edited by men?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Cravingjava, posted 03-15-2002 10:14 AM Cravingjava has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by TrueCreation, posted 04-02-2002 11:42 AM DavidAlias has replied

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 329 (8096)
04-02-2002 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by DavidAlias
04-02-2002 7:52 AM


"My question is this: If Adam & Eve and their children were the only people on earth at the time, who was this woman that Cain took for a wife?"
--His sister (Ahhh!).
"Who was Nod for that matter?"
--Who? Do you mean Where? or What? Where - in the east, What - A named territory of land.
"Were there other people on this planet before Adam and Eve?"
--No.
"Has something been omitted? Was 'Gods Word' edited by men? If so, by whom?"
--No
"And what are the implications on the validity of the Bible as the infallible word of God if it has been edited by men?"
--See above.
------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by DavidAlias, posted 04-02-2002 7:52 AM DavidAlias has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by bretheweb, posted 04-02-2002 2:48 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 63 by DavidAlias, posted 04-02-2002 6:50 PM TrueCreation has replied
 Message 77 by nator, posted 04-04-2002 6:49 AM TrueCreation has replied

bretheweb
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 329 (8098)
04-02-2002 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by doctrbill
03-20-2002 11:35 PM


quote:
Some people think that possession of a concordance makes them experts. Too bad it's not that simple. I've been fondling girlie magazines all my life and I still don't know a damned thing about women.
Hehehehe.
Good line.
I just wanted to post this link since this is a "battling bible verses" thread...
http://www.blueletterbible.org/
Blue Letter Bible...
That Land of Nod quote is here:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen004.html#16
If you click on the little blue boxes you get all sorts of intersting information, including various translations.
NKJV: Then Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and dwelt in the land of Nod on the east of Eden. NKJV Copyright 1982 Thomas Nelson
NASB: Then Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and settled in the land of Nod, east of Eden. NASB copyright 1995 Lockman Foundation
RSV: Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden. RSV copyright info
HNV: Kayin went out from the LORD's presence, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of `Eden.
Young's: And Cain goeth out from before Jehovah, and dwelleth in the land, moving about east of Eden;
Darby: And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah, and dwelt in the land of Nod, toward the east of Eden.
ASV: And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
Vulgate: egressusque Cain a facie Domini habitavit in terra profugus ad orientalem plagam Eden
Fun, fun.
brett
ps... Adam&Eve on the web:
http://www.adameve.com
hehehehe
------------------
Faith in a delusional belief does not make that belief not delusional.
[This message has been edited by bretheweb, 04-02-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by doctrbill, posted 03-20-2002 11:35 PM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by doctrbill, posted 10-17-2002 12:13 AM bretheweb has not replied

bretheweb
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 329 (8100)
04-02-2002 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by TrueCreation
04-02-2002 11:42 AM


quote:
"My question is this: If Adam & Eve and their children were the only people on earth at the time, who was this woman that Cain took for a wife?"
--His sister (Ahhh!).
Ah the joys of banging your younger sister!
I just love the morals espoused in the *literal* intepretation of the bible.
quote:
--Who? Do you mean Where? or What? Where - in the east, What - A named territory of land.
Why was it named Nod?
quote:
--No.
Then why was it named Nod?
Was Eden East taken?
quote:
"Were there other people on this planet before Adam and Eve?"
--No.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare [children] to them, the same [became] mighty men which [were] of old, men of renown.
quote:
"Has something been omitted? Was 'Gods Word' edited by men? If so, by whom?"
--No
Then what are these?
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com
"Gods word" has been carefully edited since they created.
quote:
"And what are the implications on the validity of the Bible as the infallible word of God if it has been edited by men?"
--See above.
And yet the air above my head is still quite empty.
brett
ps... please only respond with short, coherent sentences, thanks.
------------------
Faith in a delusional belief does not make that belief not delusional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by TrueCreation, posted 04-02-2002 11:42 AM TrueCreation has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by TrueCreation, posted 04-02-2002 5:14 PM bretheweb has replied

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