Belief...a choice?

In "A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)" here: http://EvC Forum: A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all) -->EvC Forum: A question for Athiests/Evolutionists. (re: How can one not belive in something greater than himself? et all)jazzlover_PR states: Then he goes on to give the impression that to believe something, all you have to do is choose to believe it.I say that is an incorrect statement. You cannot believe something without some rationalization. For example: I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try. I may be tortured enough, as in Orwell's "1984", but I don't see how I could make myself believe something like that without appropriate evidence.Therefore, I state that belief is not a choice.

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I say that is an incorrect statement. You cannot believe something without some rationalization. For example: I cannot choose to believe that 2 + 2 = 5, no matter how hard I try. I may be tortured enough, as in Orwell's "1984", but I don't see how I could make myself believe something like that without appropriate evidence.

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I agree - this is what makes it impossible for me to believe in a literal Bible God, one that bases salvation on what one believes. I could try for the rest of my life to believe the statements of the Bible, but my mind is simply to skeptical to be able to force belief upon myself. That's why I started the Why is belief necessary? thread, but I believe it veered from the original question - in part because it wasn't well-stated.To those who believe that belief is a choice, however, I would wonder - do you think it is a choice only in specific situations? For example, one might choose his or her belief in abstract matters, but not concrete ones. Or do you think that one can choose his or her beliefs in any matter? I can't imagine anyone thinking they could convince himself or herself that 2+2=5, but perhaps you might.If that's the case, I wonder, then, if you could convince yourself that belief isn't a choice.

But there are some who claim that they developed a belief in God and renounced atheism. I have even spoken to some in my church that say they suddenly believed that Jesus was real and converted. I find this confusing because they offer no explanation on what made them change their belief.Is there some revelation that strikes a non-believer so they immediately "know" God is real? Is religious belief different from other beliefs such that it is something you can choose?

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The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

No - its just blame creation. If theists can say it is a choice, then you can be made morally culpable for your choice. Therefore, only the bad people choose not to believe in god, and we know they are bad people becuase they choose not to believe.This formulation also conveniently ommits any discussion of the existence of god, which is assumed.

It's been decades since I read James THE VARIETIES OF RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE. The main thing I took from that book is the title but it's a very good point. There is not a single kind of religious person or experience.Belief seems to me to be a part of the phenomena of knowing and knowledge. This means it's very complex and as yet poorly understood.
Belief can range from looking up at clouds in the sky and telling someone "I believe it's going to rain soon" to believing that a supernatural event resulted in the imparting of X amount of truth to person Y and that anyone who disagrees will be subjected to Z consequences.I think some people have sudden conversion experiences but there was a process leading to that moment even if it was largely nonconcious or subliminal. I think that for most people choosing a religious belief is more complex and takes longer than choosing say which item on a menu to get, or even what car to purchase. Though I expect there are people who put more effort into deciding on the car than the religious beliefs. i.e. I want to marry him/her and he/she expects me to convert or they won't marry me, o.k. I'll take the class and join the church.lfen

So, the writers of the Bible decided that in order to add a measure of control over the population, that they had to define belief as a choice? Or...are you saying that belief as a choice is a recent invention of the Christian church? I guess this requires some Biblical knowledge. Psalm 14:1 states that "Fools say to themselves 'There is no God'" and "Fools are evil and do terrible things" Maybe there is support for your statement.Other verses appeal to using reason in order to make the choice to follow God:Isaiah 1:18, Come now, let us reason together,"
says the LORD . "Though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.Acts 17:7, So he {Paul} reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the Godfearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.It seems a little contradictory until you realize that the "reasoning" that was taking place, was used to choose which God to follow...not whether to believe in a God in the first place.Back to the same question.Anyone who thinks that belief is a choice want to help me out here?

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The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

Belief is the acceptance of truth. Truth is the conformity of a proposition of the way things are. In my opinion humans all decide what truths they choose to believe in. Logicial induction and deductional reasoning aids in decerning what premises or arguments are faulty or illogical. If a argument is found to be flawed and the premise false one has the choice to reformulate, or investigate or seek more evidence to support the premise. Or one my simple choose to believe a flawed premise or proposition. If the latter is the case then one in operating in a state of ignorance in my opinion. But that is by choice.

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"One is punished most for ones virtues" Fredrick Neitzche

you may wish to check out the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus, or Philip baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:26-40).
Instances of spontaneous combustion, I mean conversion.LOL
you may choose to believe anything you wish. two plus two makes five? If it makes you happy, believe it.

One question that pops to my mind when reading this thread is this: "What exactly is choice?" If a choice is purely a set of chemical reactions in the brain following a certain path set forth by previous choices and life experiences, then no one really has any control over their choices, so the question of whether belief is a choice becomes sort of moot.Belief is sort of in the same boat. How do you define belief? Is it a feeling of 100% certainty in something, or is it simply deciding that, based on what is currently known, choice A makes more sense than choices B, C, etc?This message has been edited by Perdition, 11-23-2004 04:00 PM

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"Of course...we all create god in our own image" - Willard Decker, Star Trek: The Motion Picturehttp://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

True enough.
But how do you determine what evidence is appropriate? If I had an "experience" with a U.F.O. encounter, I may be persuaded that such an event was genuine. You may attempt to provide "appropriate" evidence of alternative explanations to my encounter, but I may or may not be open to rejecting my belief. Some scientic minds have an uncanny discipline that suspends all connections with feelings so as not to bias their conclusions. I, however, take my feelings into account. This is true only if God is only a product of human imagination. If God exists outside of human wisdom, Mr. Decker is not right.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 11-23-2004 04:56 PM

I think if I were struck blind by Jesus then I would tend to listen to Him. Is that how belief is initiated now? I have been going to a fundamentalist church for some time and have seen nothing of this. Philip was the one who spoke to the angel and then worked on the conversion of the Ethiopian. Although the Ethiopian seemed to already believe in the scriptures he was reading, we know nothing of how he came to believe they were true. Philip's job was just providing the explanation of the scripture (as he saw it).How does this show that belief is something chosen rather than something gained through the interpretation of evidence? I can tell you that if someone raised my father from the dead, I would tend to believe what they have to say. (Oops...can't do that either 'cause ol' 666 will do that in the last days) So, truth has nothing to do with it? We should just believe that which makes us happy? Unless you are saying that belief makes truth.
Probably not.

Perhaps it is the latter but with my eternal soul (apparently) depending upon my choosing what I believe, I would like a little more confidence that I can even make that choice.

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The Holy Spirit fell in our congregation...I tried to help Him up but there were all these people laying around in my way.

Belief through personal experience probably has some value. Less so if it cannot be independently corroborated. If someone else on the ground watched you get abducted then that would help in the evidence. More people or film....more evidence.You know, like a pillar of fire...or Red Sea parting. If lots of people see it then it is more credible.Now-a-days God seems to want to keep the personal experience unique and unverifiable. Most everything is appealling to the emotions of the crowd.But the experience seems to be enough to get people to believe. Now to the real question. Does anyone actually choose to believe or is it the experience (no matter how seemingly trivial) that instills the belief? The experience then becomes part of the evidence used to rationalize the belief.Again, not a choice but a rationalization based upon some sort of evidence.edited 'cause the box didn't turn out.This message has been edited by LinearAq, 11-23-2004 05:18 PM

(Just because I know it will drive some people crazy, I'm warning ahead of time that this is basically all my opinion, without scientific basis)

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you may choose to believe anything you wish. two plus two makes five? If it makes you happy, believe it.

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But I'm saying that I can't just do that. I can't just say 2+2=5 and actually believe it. I can repeat it over and over to myself in my mind, but no matter how much I do, at the end of the day I still know that 2+2=4.Do you think that you could just make yourself believe that, so that whenever anyone asks you for the rest of your life what two plus two equals, your immediate reaction is to think 5? For me, if I were to try to believe it, what would happen is that I would think 4 by reflex, remember I was "supposed to" think 5, and say 5. What one says externally doesn't automatically equal internal belief.If I recall (it's been a long time so I apologize if this isn't quite accurate), in 1984 Winston kept repeating that two plus two was five just to stop O'Brien's torture, but that didn't mean that he actually believed it (yet), and O'Brien knew this because he knew Winston couldn't just make himself believe differently on command.To me, it's sort of like saying that (and please try not to drag this off topic, this is just an analogy) homosexuality is a choice. When did I ever sit down, think about the options, and say, "Okay, this is what I've decided to believe/be attracted to."? I don't think that we can consciously alter our beliefs. On the other hand, I do believe that we can change our mind as new information is presented (whether by epiphany or external sources) - but that is not a process we have any choice in, either. Certain posts made on this site just recently have been making me think differently about some political concepts, by presenting from a different way of thinking - but I didn't say to myself, all right, this is what I'll believe now instead; it just happened.