Howard Dean was right!

Wow, quote mining in action. You seem to have mislaid the second most from what Schraf said. Emphasis added.Its still arguable that even looking at those with many years of postgraduate study you are going to find many if not a majority outside of academia, but leaving out that second 'most' makes it much easier to rebutt.TTFN,WK

This article may be of interest to you and Schraf:http://insidehighered.com/careers/2005/04/04/rhotenQuote from article: Of course this is US data and may not generalize to other countries. But the article is an interesting discussion of why many Ph.D.s choose non-academic careers. Not to mention (as I did before) individuals who in many cases have the talent to complete many years of postgraduate study if they so chose, but never even consider it, because opportunities that do not require such study seem more attractive to them for a variety of reasons.In any case one can certainly take issue with the assertion of "most educated citizens = Ph.Ds in academia", which is the core of Schraf's post, your attempt at refutation notwithstanding.

quote:

---

Uh, no. Most of "our educated people" are not in academia,

---

Read my post a bit closer.I wrote "most of our most educated people."As in, I'll bet there are more PhD'ed experts in a wide range of fields living in college towns compared to a non-college town of the same size.

quote:

---

including business leaders, physicians, attorneys, military officers, engineers, petroleum geologists - all groups in which views to the right of Dean's (not that that is difficult to achieve) are hardly a rarity.

---

True.However, are most of these people holding PhD's?Just who do you think provides the basic understanding of nature, human psychology and physiology, etc. which is used by all of the applied professions you list?That's right. Academics do.

quote:

---

Academics usually can be counted on in their fields of expertise, but outside these fields, their views have no special validity or relevance.

---

In general, that's true, except that academics are also very accusomed to explaining and defending their research among their peers, especially in the sciences. They develop very good critical thinking skills and are kept from becoming too much in love with their own ideas because academia is all about reaching consensus.Just think how different things would be if something like peer-review was practiced among companies like Worldcom and Enron.

quote:

---

Academics and non-academics living in college towns (as a group) are a rather small demographic with rather idiosyncratic political views in the context of the nation as a whole, which they do not seem to realize are idiosyncratic.

---

Oh, we do. We can't understand why the rest of the world is so blind and deaf.

quote:

---

Perhaps this is a symptom of "groupthink" as defined in your post a while back ? Many of the characteristics seem fit, and it is richly ironic (yet not unexpected) that their possessors seem oblivious to that.

---

Of course, groupthink is possible anywhere, but I doubt that such a diverse population of educated people accustomed to challenging their own ideas on a regular basis would be terribly suceptible to it.

quote:

---

They are of course entitled to these views, but should realize that they do not enjoy general popularity in the USA as a whole.

---

Yeah.The majority of the US population believed that the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi, too.

Senator Rick Santorum, on Democrats attempting to preserve the judicial filibuster, May 2005:

quote:

---

IT'S THE EQUIVALENT OF ADOLF HITLER IN 1942 "I'M IN PARIS. HOW DARE YOU INVADE ME. HOW DARE YOU BOMB MY CITY? IT'S MINE."

---

Sorry about the caps, it came that way.Senator Rick Santorum, regarding the secular position of the US constitution that protects the freedom of all religions:

quote:

---

I just want to remind people of the societies over the last couple of centuries that have been secular in nature, and see what results of that. Starting with the French Revolution. Moving on to the last century - to the fascists. And yes, the Nazis. And then the Communists. And the Ba'athists. All of those.

---

chuck2006 - download electronic book'sMichael Zak, prominent historian of the GOP (and favorite author of Maryland Lt. Governor Michael Steele), at a GOP fundraising dinner in Calvert County, Maryland:

quote:

---

Mastery over blacks has always been Democratic policy.

​

Democrats are socialists and we should call them socialists. It's to the Democrats' advantage children grow up poor and uneducated.

​

The common perception that Democrats are somehow less respectful of the Constitution, that they often revel in stretching and twisting it to suit their purposes, is valid.

---

Now, before you write this guy off as some kind of fringe crackpot, let's take a look at who's taking his ideas seriously:

quote:

---

Justice Clarence Thomas honored Back to Basics for the Republican Party with a citation in the 2001 Supreme Court decision FEC v. Colorado Republican Federal Election Committee

​

Senator Peter Fitzgerald (R - IL): one of the best books I ever read

​

Senator Lincoln Chafee (R - RI): excellent

​

Representative Christopher Cox (R - CA): "The Republican heritage is shared by every American who cherishes universal suffrage, civil rights, and equality before the law. The pivotal role of the Republican party in this achievement - and the racist and sexist past of the Democratic party - are authoritatively presented in this eye-opening book."

---

Apparently Tom DeLay hates the Internet:

quote:

---

"Absolutely. We've got Justice Kennedy writing decisions based upon international law, not the Constitution of the United States? That's just outrageous," DeLay told Fox News Radio on Tuesday. "And not only that, but he said in session that he does his own research on the Internet? That is just incredibly outrageous."

---

Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC) on gays in education:

quote:

---

Gays and lesbians should not be allowed to teach in public schools, Republican Jim DeMint said Sunday in a U.S. Senate debate.

​

DeMint, a Greenville congressman, said the government should not endorse homosexuality and folks teaching in school need to represent our values.

---

Here's a twofer:

quote:

---

Two N.C. Republicans draw fire for ‘outrageous’ ethnic comments

​

By PAT MORRISON

​

Congressional colleagues and several minority groups have blasted recent comments made by two North Carolina House Republicans, Sue Myrick of Charlotte and Howard Coble of Greensboro. Coble’s comments came in an early February radio talk show, in which he defended President Franklin D. Roosevelt’s decision to intern Japanese-Americans in concentration-camp-style settings during World War II. Myrick caused a stir for her remarks about Arab-Americans.

​

Myrick, speaking on a potential link to Arab-Americans and global terrorism, said in her talk, Look who runs all the convenience stories across the country. Later, after several Arab-American groups protested her comments, Myrick said she only wanted to remind communities of the real threat of terrorism, including the illegal trafficking of food stamps through convenience stores for the purpose of laundering money to countries known to harbor terrorists. To date, despite accusations, there have been no substantiated cases of illegal food stamp commerce in the United States linked to terrorism.

---

Former US Secretary of Education Rod Paige had some strong words of support for the nation's teachers:

quote:

---

Education Secretary Rod Paige called the National Education Association a "terrorist organization" Monday as he argued that the country's largest teachers union often acts at odds with the wishes of rank-and-file teachers regarding school standards and accountability.

---

Hmm, let's look at those groupthink criteria again... Interesting... Umm-hmm... It was; that's why they went under. The peer review board is called "the financial markets". You're very fond of repeating this, but it's irrelevant to the topic under discussion.

This is one item, amongst probably many, that are seemingly marginal to the main theme of the topic.I would encourage someone to start a "Coffee House" "Groupthink" topic.Adminnemooseus

Yep, Santorum said that and it’s the same type of caustic hyperbole that Dean spews. He was referring to hypocritical Democrats breaking the fillabuster rules. Congressional RecordWhether he was right or wrong about Democrats and the fillabuster rules is immaterial. I find any comparison between US politicians and Hitler / Nazis to be extreme, untrue and unfair regardless of who is uttering the words. I don’t find this directed at Democrats. He is not accusing Democrats of fostering these type of societies. He was referring to how religions were persecuted under these regimes and it’s true, they were. Prominent historian? Hardly. Before writing the book Mr. Zak was a financial analyst for several institutions in Chicago and New York.The quotes you listed are a mixture from the book and speeches by the author. There is nothing to indicate that Lt. Gov. Steele was endorsing the speeches, or even whether his comments on the book were made before or after the author made the speeches from which those quotes were taken. DeLay doesn’t hate the internet. He was being critical of Kennedy for using internet info as part of the foundations for his opinions. CBS News Correspondent Gloria Borger put it this way. "I think Tom Delay’s point is that he's calling Justice Kennedy one of those so-called activist judges who doesn’t rely solely on the Constitution when he writes his opinions,"The ironic thing is that Justice Kennedy has been historically conservative and was appointed by President Reagan. So we have a Republican criticizing another Republican, imagine that. Yea, this congressman said that. I wouldn’t say his comments have the same effect as Dean’s. He doesn’t want gay teachers in public schools. That’s his opinion, not hyperbole. He also apologized or tried to but Tim Russert nailed him good and wouldn’t let him wriggle away from his words. The Russert / Demint interview on Meet the Press is here at the bottom of the transcript.The comments by the two N.C. Republican congressman were ethnic based and not aimed at Democrats. Still, both comments were stupid. Yes, Rod Paige did say that and latter apologized saying that it was an inappropriate choice of words" An administration official said the secretary was "clearly joking" but he should not have used the "terrorist" label in taking issue with the NEA.So out of the 8 quotes you provided, I think only the Santorum / Hitler comment rises to the same level as Dean.

I have to pull you to the questions, and now I have to answer them? I'm through with you in this thread.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I wasn't so much thinking of disaffected Reps voting Dem as an alternative, but rather creating their own third party splitters or simply not voting (both of which have happened in the past).I do agree with your analysis though.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Uh-huh. So, indeed, you are going to try to weasel out. Good to know.

Weasel out of what? I gave you analysis on each of the 8 quotes you provided, I think only the Santorum / Hitler comment rises to the same level as Dean. Most of your quotes don't even deal with Republican criticism of Democrats. In fact you threw in some obscure financial analyst/author as your representative of a high ranking Republican politician.

What? Do you think debate is only about asking questions? That all you need do is pull me to your questions? Try answering a few yourself.But if you can't or won't that's ok. Run away, goodbye

I did remember? That's what started us into this new loop of you avoiding my questions, or any questions, again. I'm not running away from anything, but I'm also not going to do all the work. At this point I'm simply letting this conversation die of malnutrition.If you want to keep it alive, feed it something real.

---

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Out of this:

quote:

---

will things like "Democrats are like Nazis" or "Liberals are the enemy" be accepted as similar examples of hyperbolic rhetoric?

---

quote:

---

Sure, I would say those statements if spoken by top Republican politicians would qualify as caustic hyperbole in the same vein as comments by Dean.

---

Now you say they don't? Chris Cox wasn't high enough ranking for you? 5th highest ranking Republican in the House doesn't count? You would consider the head of the Securities and Exchange Commission less influential than a Democrat who doesn't hold any public office whatsoever?Like I said, weasel. You don't take any of this seriously. Why should we be bothered to address your arguments?

No, Cox doesn't count because HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING inflammatory. You made a somewhat futile attempt to list high ranking Democrats who have made similar caustic inflammatory comments like Howard Dean. Here is your list Message 169, other than Santorum’s comments which I agreed with you on, the best you could do was to list some obscure financial analyst-author who made a few comments.I gave my responses to each of your examples here Message 172. I have responded in good faith to all of your comments.Call me names if that makes you feel good and gives you a sense of self importance. I'm happy to prop up your low self esteem. That must be why you refer to yourself in the plural using we. It's sad that need to consult with Holmes before you post.