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1. To be subordinate is to be under the headship of another. That's biblical. For the wife to be childlike towards the husband is not. They are equals in status so far as their relationship to God.
They are? That doesn't seem to be what the Bible says.
1 Cor 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
But if you really think that God's relationship with the woman is equal to the man's relationship with God, then what happens when they both pray to God about some descision, and God tells the woman one thing, which she is very sure is what God wants them to do, and the man also prays to God and gets a very different answer?
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The wife has as much clout with God as does the husband. Each are favored by God according to how they fulfill the God given role for them to play in life. If the husband abuses his position as head and does not behave lovingly towards his wife, the wife has recourse by complaining to God whom she has equal access to.
What if God doesn't do anything about it, and he continues to abuse and control her to her grave?
What kind of life is that? What kind of justice is that?
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If the wife seeks to usurp the head position designated to the husband, the husband has no instruction by God to punish the wife as do the Muslims and as is taught in the Quran.
But buz,
there doesn't have to be a leader at all.
The only argument you have made is by analogies to businesses or clubs, which is not valid. A marriage is a PERSONAL relationship between TWO people, not a business.
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The Bible, neither Old Testament or New instructs the husband to punish the wife physically as does the Quran. His biblical response to insubordination is to also complain to God and continue to lovingly assume his position as head.
The Bible also has instructions about how we should treat our slaves.
Does this mean that we should have slaves today?
The bible makes it clear that women are chattel, and are part of the spoils of war, to be taken and used.
Is this how we should conduct ourselves in times of war now?
Or, could it possibly be that Biblical proscriptions are outdated for a great many social institutions, including marriage?
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If either partner cannot accept this biblical role for Christians it may cause a breakup, but neither should relinquish the God given role, regardless.
...or it may cause an adult relationship where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual respect and love.
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2. The more lovingly the husband treats the wife, the easier it is for the wife to accept his leadership.
A prison made out of diamonds and gold is still a prison, buz.
Why would an intelligent, self-respecting adult ever want to be led, like a child, through life instead of having just as much say in what happens in their life than their life partner does?
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The more the wife honors the headship of her husband the easier it becomes for him to love her and to designate more authority to her in the family unit.
What is creepy to me is that the love and caring and respect of your "Biblical" marriage model seems to be just the "grease on the wheels" to facilitate the power of the man as leader.
The male power trip seems to be the most important thing in your ideal marriage, and how people are treated in the marriage serves to maintain the higerarchy.
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...Golden Rule...
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
I want to be treated as an equal partner in my marriage, so I'll treat my husband as an equal partner.
The Golden rule doesn't work for your ideal marriage, though, because if you treat your wife as a subordinate, able to dominate her will if you deem it appropriate, she cannot do the same to you, correct?
Begging like a CHILD.
A CHILD.
YOU said the man was reduced to being CHILDLIKE.
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I see your point here. Perhaps I exaggerated some here as it really hasn't happened as much as I've implicated, but over the years as I've been in the retail business, this has,on occasion been the case with wimpy husbands for the most part and rarely has a woman begged the husband for money in my 40 plus years in business.
A pretty sad backpedal here, buz.
You have insisted that the your Biblical marriage model, with the male as leader and woman as follower did not constitute a parent/child relationship.
Then you slipped up in your effort to show how wrong marriages could go when the men abdicated their rightful place as Grand Pubah for Life of the marriage. You very correctly characterized the pathetic, CHILDLIKE behavior the man was forced to display when he was in the subordinate role, which was exactly the point I was attempting to make clear to you.
You do obviously understand the point, because it was obviously quite distasteful and pathetic to you that a man would ever have to reduce himself to behaving like a child in his marriage to get what he needed or wanted.
Do you understand that this is exactly what the majority of women feel about your marriage model.
That it is demeaning and insulting and humiliating to be treated as anything less than an adult in any relationship, but especially in her marriage?
When a marriage is not an equal partnership of adults where wants and needs are negotiated out of mutual love and respect, a parent/child relationship is inevitable, as you just illustrated.
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That's ok so long as agreement can be reached, but especially early in marriage mutual love and respect negotiations don't always cut the mustard and breakup ensues or the more dominant of the pair play the leadership role.
Evidence, please.
Upon what do you base this claim, buz?
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I wouldn't want to start up a club, church, lodge or business on that basis.
A MARRIAGE isn't a club, church, lodge, or business, buz.
It is an intimate personal friendship/love relationship between two people who make vows to each other to stay together for life.
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I'd want an established chain of command established at the onset to better insure smooth operation.
But then why do Evangelical Baptists, who certainly admonish their women to submit to their husbands, get divorced more frequently than Atheists and Agnostics?
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